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Is that supposed to be some kind of excuse for derailing the peace process? Are you actually denying that progress toward a two-state solution happened between

Is that supposed to be some kind of excuse for derailing the peace process? Are you actually denying that progress toward a two-state solution happened between the Oslo Accords in 1993 and Hamas taking power in 2006? Like it or not the government of Israel and the PLO made a good-faith effort to establish a legitimate Palestinian state. It is not an easy task, the solution is not simple and there are a lot of legitimate grievances on both sides that need to be sorted out. Unfortunately groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and various other terrorist organizations have derailed that process. There is no cabal hiding in the background and pulling the strings to sow chaos in Palestinian society (do people really need to be told that wild conspiracy theories are nonsense?).

lacksconfidence 5y ago
The median age in palestine is (was, 2014) 18 years old. Compare to 30 in israel or 40 in france. Like it or not the vast majority of palestinians alive today had nothing to do with what hamas did 15 years ago. They were mostly children or not even born yet.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  What does that have to do with the fact that Hamas derailed the peace process and continues to be the most significant obstacle to peace?
  - lacksconfidence 5y ago
    As far as i can tell you are advocating to punish the residents of pallestine because some time ago, when most of the current residents were either children or unborn, someone else did a bad thing. To me that seems exceptionally unjust.
    - betterunix2 5y ago
      How am I saying anything of the sort? Regardless of when the people were born, it is a fact that they do not have a functioning government. It is a fact that Hamas derailed the effort to establish that government, and that Hamas has repeatedly interfered with those efforts over the past 15 years and continues to do so now. I am not "advocating" anything, I am simply stating the reality of the Palestinian situation today and why they are in that situation. You seem to think Hamas is some long-past group. Hamas controls Gaza today; they are the ones launching rockets at Israel right now. Hamas remains the most significant obstacle to peace between Israelis and Palestinians right now. As the rulers of Gaza, Hamas has been a brutally repressive regime, roughly on the level of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Hamas deliberately spreads their military assets across densely populated civilian areas in order to maximize civilian casualties during war. The Hamas charter says that the role of women in society is to produce more men. They have cracked down on hip-hop, baggy pants, hair salons, and even indigenous Palestinian folk tales. I personally think the Palestinians deserve better than Hamas. Why do you keep dismissing the overwhelmingly negative impact this group has had on the Palestinian people? Why do you keep looking for a way to deny the role Hamas has played and continues to play in preventing the formation of an effective civil government and a functioning Palestinian state?
      - lacksconfidence 5y ago
        I think Hamas is a horrible organization. But if we could eliminate the entirety of the hamas leadership today, in a single moment, another similar organization would spring up because israel is creating the conditions that encourage such an organization to exist. Israel holds all the cards here, not the palestinians. Not hamas. Israel is the party that must step up and provide a real solution. Israel's solution over the past decade has been to contain the palestinians, lock their borders, and knock over their buildings whenever they get too uppity. This policy will never result in a reduction of terrorists. It will never result in removing the conditions that allow hamas to exist. Imagine if you are a 20 year old gazan (older than the average gazan) and all you know, your entire life, is israeli control of the strip. The death tolls aren't high enough that everyone has a dead family member, but i wouldn't be surprised if everyone knows someone the IDF killed. This is how america created terrorists in the middle east. This is how Israel is creating terrorists in their own backyard. Foreign politicians enforcing their will, through force, upon a people that don't want it. Hamas isn't long past, the fact is Hamas is not particularly important. Hamas is a symptom, not the problem. If Israel had the will to fix their structural problems, Hamas would have no reason to exist. Hamas is throwing unguided missles randomly and Israel is hitting them back by leveling buildings. Hamas is no more than a small child throwing a tantrum with no possibility to actually cause a change. All they can do is scream louder and hope someone else will do something. Again, Hamas is not the problem, they are a symptom of Israel's policy regarding palestinians.

lacksconfidence 5y ago

The median age in palestine is (was, 2014) 18 years old. Compare to 30 in israel or 40 in france. Like it or not the vast majority of palestinians alive today had nothing to do with what hamas did 15 years ago. They were mostly children or not even born yet.

betterunix2 5y ago
What does that have to do with the fact that Hamas derailed the peace process and continues to be the most significant obstacle to peace?
- lacksconfidence 5y ago
  As far as i can tell you are advocating to punish the residents of pallestine because some time ago, when most of the current residents were either children or unborn, someone else did a bad thing. To me that seems exceptionally unjust.
  - betterunix2 5y ago
    How am I saying anything of the sort? Regardless of when the people were born, it is a fact that they do not have a functioning government. It is a fact that Hamas derailed the effort to establish that government, and that Hamas has repeatedly interfered with those efforts over the past 15 years and continues to do so now. I am not "advocating" anything, I am simply stating the reality of the Palestinian situation today and why they are in that situation. You seem to think Hamas is some long-past group. Hamas controls Gaza today; they are the ones launching rockets at Israel right now. Hamas remains the most significant obstacle to peace between Israelis and Palestinians right now. As the rulers of Gaza, Hamas has been a brutally repressive regime, roughly on the level of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Hamas deliberately spreads their military assets across densely populated civilian areas in order to maximize civilian casualties during war. The Hamas charter says that the role of women in society is to produce more men. They have cracked down on hip-hop, baggy pants, hair salons, and even indigenous Palestinian folk tales. I personally think the Palestinians deserve better than Hamas. Why do you keep dismissing the overwhelmingly negative impact this group has had on the Palestinian people? Why do you keep looking for a way to deny the role Hamas has played and continues to play in preventing the formation of an effective civil government and a functioning Palestinian state?
    - lacksconfidence 5y ago
      I think Hamas is a horrible organization. But if we could eliminate the entirety of the hamas leadership today, in a single moment, another similar organization would spring up because israel is creating the conditions that encourage such an organization to exist. Israel holds all the cards here, not the palestinians. Not hamas. Israel is the party that must step up and provide a real solution. Israel's solution over the past decade has been to contain the palestinians, lock their borders, and knock over their buildings whenever they get too uppity. This policy will never result in a reduction of terrorists. It will never result in removing the conditions that allow hamas to exist. Imagine if you are a 20 year old gazan (older than the average gazan) and all you know, your entire life, is israeli control of the strip. The death tolls aren't high enough that everyone has a dead family member, but i wouldn't be surprised if everyone knows someone the IDF killed. This is how america created terrorists in the middle east. This is how Israel is creating terrorists in their own backyard. Foreign politicians enforcing their will, through force, upon a people that don't want it. Hamas isn't long past, the fact is Hamas is not particularly important. Hamas is a symptom, not the problem. If Israel had the will to fix their structural problems, Hamas would have no reason to exist. Hamas is throwing unguided missles randomly and Israel is hitting them back by leveling buildings. Hamas is no more than a small child throwing a tantrum with no possibility to actually cause a change. All they can do is scream louder and hope someone else will do something. Again, Hamas is not the problem, they are a symptom of Israel's policy regarding palestinians.