5 ms·

I don't know where your numbers are coming from, but they are at the very least misleading because the population was not exclusively made up of Jews and the gr

by slg 5y ago

I don't know where your numbers are coming from, but they are at the very least misleading because the population was not exclusively made up of Jews and the group we now call Palestinians and not all land was privately owned. EDIT: I rephrased this to more clearly explain my point.

sudosysgen 5y ago
I don't understand your argument. Jewish Palestinians plus non-Jewish Palestinians do make up 100% of Palestinians.
- slg 5y ago
  Oops, I made that more confusing by trying to note everyone was a Palestinian when the place was called Palestine. By "non-Jewish Palestinians" I was trying to refer to the predominately Muslim and predominately Arab group that we now just call Palestinians. There was and still is a population of Christians in the area and there presumably was some larger population of foreigners in the area when it was under foreign rule. I edited that comment to clear things up.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Everyone is still a Palestinian nowadays though. The reason why there are less Christian Palestinians is because a lot of them were deported or fled shortly after the Nakba. A lot of them would come back if Palestine was restored, but most of them are legally prevented by Israel from coming back. Not even Hamas or Hezbollah wants Palestine to be a single religion or single ethnicity state, so I don't really understand what you were trying to convey.
    - slg 5y ago
      I'm not going to get that deep into politics here. You are basically arguing for a one state solution except it is Palestinian run instead of Israeli run. HN probably isn't the place to have that debate.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        I wouldn't care if it was Palestinian run or Israeli run, if it was one or two states, as long as its peaceful and democratic. What I care about are factually wrong and misleading statements.
    - js4ever 5y ago
      Christians are killed in palestinans parts like in most Muslim countries ... So clearly you are completely wrong and partisan
    - benja123 5y ago
      The Christian population in the Christian towns of the Westbank (Bethlehem) and in Gaza have been decreasing steadily for the past 70 years - this has nothing to do with the occupation of the Westbank and Gaza and everything to do with persecution by the local population. This trend is not confined to just the Westbank and Gaza and is in fact a trend that is occurring across the entire Middle East where in the past 100 years the Christian population has decreased from 20% of the population to approximately 5% of the population.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        Have you ever been in Gaza or the Westbank? How these places work is that if you leave, you can never come back. These places are awful to live in. The only people that stay there stay because they don't have a choice or for ideological reasons. That's why Christians leave moreso, they often have family that left and can get refugee status more easily. The trend of Christians leaving is a highly localized trend. The greatest number of Christians left not everywhere in the Middle East, but in Iraq, Syria, and, a while ago, Turkey. The events in the last sixty years that contributed the most to Christian emigration were the Lebanese civil war, the Iraq war, the Syrian Civil War, and the Nakba of 1948.
      - DSingularity 5y ago
        If by persecution by the locals you mean the Jewish Israelis — sure. But if you are trying to imply that the Muslim Arabs persecuted the Christians get out of here. By wide margins the European Christian crusaders killed more Arab Christians then any other ethnic group. Palestinian Christians and Muslims have coexisted for a long, long time. To the point that the holiest of Christian churches are often entrusted to Muslim custodianship. How else would you explain that?
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        Indeed. The majority of Palestinian Christians left due to their ethnic cleansing by Israel in 1948. It's not Hamas that destroyed a Christian church and orphanage a week ago. It was an Israeli bomb. There were two or three attacks of Christians in Palestine by Muslims, however them being religiously motivated is doubtful and the perpetrators were condemned and prosecuted by everyone, even Hamas. The vast majority of persecution of Christians in Palestine for their religion was by Jewish extremists, overwhelmingly. Let alone ethnic persecution of Christians.
- belorn 5y ago
  You would have land owned by Jewish Palestinians, land owned by non-Jewish Palestinians, and land cooperatively owned by both Jewish and non-Jewish Palestinians. Jewish Palestinians plus non-Jewish Palestinians do not make up 100% of Palestinians, but rather the result of 100% minus land cooperatively owned by both Jewish and non-Jewish Palestinians.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    You're confusing land and people here.
    - belorn 5y ago
      DSingularity above is talking about 2% owning 8% of the land, with "92% accept that so much of what is rightfully theirs would be forcefully taken from them". If you are saying I am confusing land and people, what is the 2% and 8% number referring to in the above comment? People and land? If so, what people, and what land?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - DSingularity 5y ago
        At the time of the British mandate the Jewish minority — 2% of the population — owned a total of 8% of the land. So, my point was, why do you blame the Arabs for not accepting the partition plan which came to impose a forceful transfer of land from the majority to the minority. When you consider the facts you can clearly see why the Palestinians opposed the initial partition plan of Palestine.
        belorn 5y ago
        Yes, but then my initial comment above about the Jewish population and the arab population is not confusing land and people. The Jewish population owned 2%, and the arab population owned X amount of land, while Y amount of land was owned cooperatively by individuals of both. It would be interesting to know what X and Y is. The partitioning of land was obviously unfair after world war 2. I doubt anyone actually disagree with it. Land getting repossessed and captured during wars is never fair, and it was not the only border change that occurred when the world war ended. The allies did not just keep the borders at they were at the beginning of ww2, through much of the land grabs has been mostly forgotten outside of people studying history. The Israeli–Palestinian conflict is one of the few remaining land conflicts from the war.

by slg 5y ago

sudosysgen 5y ago

I don't understand your argument. Jewish Palestinians plus non-Jewish Palestinians do make up 100% of Palestinians.

slg 5y ago
Oops, I made that more confusing by trying to note everyone was a Palestinian when the place was called Palestine. By "non-Jewish Palestinians" I was trying to refer to the predominately Muslim and predominately Arab group that we now just call Palestinians. There was and still is a population of Christians in the area and there presumably was some larger population of foreigners in the area when it was under foreign rule. I edited that comment to clear things up.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Everyone is still a Palestinian nowadays though. The reason why there are less Christian Palestinians is because a lot of them were deported or fled shortly after the Nakba. A lot of them would come back if Palestine was restored, but most of them are legally prevented by Israel from coming back. Not even Hamas or Hezbollah wants Palestine to be a single religion or single ethnicity state, so I don't really understand what you were trying to convey.
  - slg 5y ago
    I'm not going to get that deep into politics here. You are basically arguing for a one state solution except it is Palestinian run instead of Israeli run. HN probably isn't the place to have that debate.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      I wouldn't care if it was Palestinian run or Israeli run, if it was one or two states, as long as its peaceful and democratic. What I care about are factually wrong and misleading statements.
  - js4ever 5y ago
    Christians are killed in palestinans parts like in most Muslim countries ... So clearly you are completely wrong and partisan
  - benja123 5y ago
    The Christian population in the Christian towns of the Westbank (Bethlehem) and in Gaza have been decreasing steadily for the past 70 years - this has nothing to do with the occupation of the Westbank and Gaza and everything to do with persecution by the local population. This trend is not confined to just the Westbank and Gaza and is in fact a trend that is occurring across the entire Middle East where in the past 100 years the Christian population has decreased from 20% of the population to approximately 5% of the population.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Have you ever been in Gaza or the Westbank? How these places work is that if you leave, you can never come back. These places are awful to live in. The only people that stay there stay because they don't have a choice or for ideological reasons. That's why Christians leave moreso, they often have family that left and can get refugee status more easily. The trend of Christians leaving is a highly localized trend. The greatest number of Christians left not everywhere in the Middle East, but in Iraq, Syria, and, a while ago, Turkey. The events in the last sixty years that contributed the most to Christian emigration were the Lebanese civil war, the Iraq war, the Syrian Civil War, and the Nakba of 1948.
    - DSingularity 5y ago
      If by persecution by the locals you mean the Jewish Israelis — sure. But if you are trying to imply that the Muslim Arabs persecuted the Christians get out of here. By wide margins the European Christian crusaders killed more Arab Christians then any other ethnic group. Palestinian Christians and Muslims have coexisted for a long, long time. To the point that the holiest of Christian churches are often entrusted to Muslim custodianship. How else would you explain that?
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        Indeed. The majority of Palestinian Christians left due to their ethnic cleansing by Israel in 1948. It's not Hamas that destroyed a Christian church and orphanage a week ago. It was an Israeli bomb. There were two or three attacks of Christians in Palestine by Muslims, however them being religiously motivated is doubtful and the perpetrators were condemned and prosecuted by everyone, even Hamas. The vast majority of persecution of Christians in Palestine for their religion was by Jewish extremists, overwhelmingly. Let alone ethnic persecution of Christians.
belorn 5y ago
You would have land owned by Jewish Palestinians, land owned by non-Jewish Palestinians, and land cooperatively owned by both Jewish and non-Jewish Palestinians. Jewish Palestinians plus non-Jewish Palestinians do not make up 100% of Palestinians, but rather the result of 100% minus land cooperatively owned by both Jewish and non-Jewish Palestinians.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  You're confusing land and people here.
  - belorn 5y ago
    DSingularity above is talking about 2% owning 8% of the land, with "92% accept that so much of what is rightfully theirs would be forcefully taken from them". If you are saying I am confusing land and people, what is the 2% and 8% number referring to in the above comment? People and land? If so, what people, and what land?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - DSingularity 5y ago
      At the time of the British mandate the Jewish minority — 2% of the population — owned a total of 8% of the land. So, my point was, why do you blame the Arabs for not accepting the partition plan which came to impose a forceful transfer of land from the majority to the minority. When you consider the facts you can clearly see why the Palestinians opposed the initial partition plan of Palestine.
      - belorn 5y ago
        Yes, but then my initial comment above about the Jewish population and the arab population is not confusing land and people. The Jewish population owned 2%, and the arab population owned X amount of land, while Y amount of land was owned cooperatively by individuals of both. It would be interesting to know what X and Y is. The partitioning of land was obviously unfair after world war 2. I doubt anyone actually disagree with it. Land getting repossessed and captured during wars is never fair, and it was not the only border change that occurred when the world war ended. The allies did not just keep the borders at they were at the beginning of ww2, through much of the land grabs has been mostly forgotten outside of people studying history. The Israeli–Palestinian conflict is one of the few remaining land conflicts from the war.