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That’s very disingenuous - there are zero territorial claims against Israel in Gaza Strip. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, dissolving all settlements in

That’s very disingenuous - there are zero territorial claims against Israel in Gaza Strip. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, dissolving all settlements in the area, back in 2005. The blockade is simply an ongoing state of war between Gaza and Israel. Gaza also borders with Egypt.

stormbrew 5y ago
Israel recognizes no government in Gaza (neither the Palestinian Authority, which has no power there, nor Hamas, which they recognize as terrorists not a government), claims control over entry and exit to the territory of goods and people, including by sea, and claims the right to enter the territory at any time to carry out military activity. Israel also does not recognize a Palestinian state in general to be at war with to begin with. There is some lip service to an eventual two state solution that gets less and less paid to every year, but as it stands there's no one to be at war with, as far as Israel is concerned. There's just a bunch of stateless people stuck in a postage-stamp-sized jurisdiction that they've left in a lawless state. "Disengagement" is not devolution is not autonomy. The idea that this is a war is a convenient PR fiction.
- avip 5y ago
  Were you using the term "claims control over entry of goods into the territory" instead of "claims their land", there would be much less to argue about. "claims their land" sounds like Israel would like to annex Gaza and make it part of Israel - which is ridiculous and patently false.
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    Is it? Certainly, there are political factions within Israel that claim it should be part of Israel -- that's why there were settlements to remove in the first place. It would be ridiculous to deny that, honestly. Those factions seem to continue to grow in influence every year as well. The idea that Israel should be one state that covers the entirety of the former mandate of Palestine seems to actually be pretty popular in Israel right now. It may not be the official policy, but it is a very real possibility. Regardless, if a country exerts every measure of control over a territory it can including entry and exit from it along international borders, it's really hard imo to argue that it sees it as sovereign in any way. Israel clearly does not see Gaza as an independent state. So if it's not an independent state what exactly is it a part of if not Israel. Or, to put it a little bit more snarky: you can't neglect your way out of an occupation. Neglect is, in fact, a weapon in cases like this.
    - avip 5y ago
      Does Egypt also claim their land?
      - stormbrew 5y ago
        Not as far as I know? Egypt does control access in and out along their own border, as every country does, but afaik the nature of that control is at least somewhat dictated by agreements between Egypt and Israel. As far as I know Egypt does not do any of the other things I listed, like controlling what can go in and out of Gaza through borders that aren't their own, nor do they make military incursions into it or bomb it. Also, and I think this is actually pretty key to the idea that Israel believes the land of Gaza to be part of Israel, if Egypt were to invade Gaza do you really believe that Israel would allow that to stand? If Israel truly considered Gaza a state not under its jurisdiction, Egypt annexing Gaza would likely be a welcome outcome.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > Does Egypt also claim their land? Nope. It (or rather the United Arab Republic, of which modern Egypt is a successor but not the sole successor) temporarily occupied it (officially, pending resolution of the Israel/Palestine issue, but terminated early by force) from 1959-1967 without claiming it. There was some ambiguity about Egypt’s stance between 1967-1978, but after 1978 they unambiguously had no claim, even administrative, over Gaza.
  - jakelazaroff 5y ago
    > "claims their land" sounds like Israel would like to annex Gaza and make it part of Israel - which is ridiculous and patently false. It very much is not. A recent a Netanyahu election ad showed a map of Israel without Gaza and the West Bank cut out, overlaid with the words “one state”. Among other examples. https://twitter.com/jewish_worker/status/1394036492213833728?s=21 https://twitter.com/jewish_worker/status/1394036492213833728...

stormbrew 5y ago

Israel recognizes no government in Gaza (neither the Palestinian Authority, which has no power there, nor Hamas, which they recognize as terrorists not a government), claims control over entry and exit to the territory of goods and people, including by sea, and claims the right to enter the territory at any time to carry out military activity. Israel also does not recognize a Palestinian state in general to be at war with to begin with. There is some lip service to an eventual two state solution that gets less and less paid to every year, but as it stands there's no one to be at war with, as far as Israel is concerned. There's just a bunch of stateless people stuck in a postage-stamp-sized jurisdiction that they've left in a lawless state. "Disengagement" is not devolution is not autonomy. The idea that this is a war is a convenient PR fiction.

avip 5y ago
Were you using the term "claims control over entry of goods into the territory" instead of "claims their land", there would be much less to argue about. "claims their land" sounds like Israel would like to annex Gaza and make it part of Israel - which is ridiculous and patently false.
- stormbrew 5y ago
  Is it? Certainly, there are political factions within Israel that claim it should be part of Israel -- that's why there were settlements to remove in the first place. It would be ridiculous to deny that, honestly. Those factions seem to continue to grow in influence every year as well. The idea that Israel should be one state that covers the entirety of the former mandate of Palestine seems to actually be pretty popular in Israel right now. It may not be the official policy, but it is a very real possibility. Regardless, if a country exerts every measure of control over a territory it can including entry and exit from it along international borders, it's really hard imo to argue that it sees it as sovereign in any way. Israel clearly does not see Gaza as an independent state. So if it's not an independent state what exactly is it a part of if not Israel. Or, to put it a little bit more snarky: you can't neglect your way out of an occupation. Neglect is, in fact, a weapon in cases like this.
  - avip 5y ago
    Does Egypt also claim their land?
    - stormbrew 5y ago
      Not as far as I know? Egypt does control access in and out along their own border, as every country does, but afaik the nature of that control is at least somewhat dictated by agreements between Egypt and Israel. As far as I know Egypt does not do any of the other things I listed, like controlling what can go in and out of Gaza through borders that aren't their own, nor do they make military incursions into it or bomb it. Also, and I think this is actually pretty key to the idea that Israel believes the land of Gaza to be part of Israel, if Egypt were to invade Gaza do you really believe that Israel would allow that to stand? If Israel truly considered Gaza a state not under its jurisdiction, Egypt annexing Gaza would likely be a welcome outcome.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Does Egypt also claim their land? Nope. It (or rather the United Arab Republic, of which modern Egypt is a successor but not the sole successor) temporarily occupied it (officially, pending resolution of the Israel/Palestine issue, but terminated early by force) from 1959-1967 without claiming it. There was some ambiguity about Egypt’s stance between 1967-1978, but after 1978 they unambiguously had no claim, even administrative, over Gaza.
- jakelazaroff 5y ago
  > "claims their land" sounds like Israel would like to annex Gaza and make it part of Israel - which is ridiculous and patently false. It very much is not. A recent a Netanyahu election ad showed a map of Israel without Gaza and the West Bank cut out, overlaid with the words “one state”. Among other examples. https://twitter.com/jewish_worker/status/1394036492213833728?s=21 https://twitter.com/jewish_worker/status/1394036492213833728...