6 ms·

Public transit is the only option. I would love to see a general audit of night shift work and ongoing plans to keep it at an absolute minimum, but that's prob

Public transit is the only option. I would love to see a general audit of night shift work and ongoing plans to keep it at an absolute minimum, but that's probably too utopian a project to see in this country any time soon :/.

sokoloff 5y ago
Many night shift jobs already pay a shift differential. Many employees seek out those shifts. Why would we, as a society, want to prevent these seemingly mutually beneficial arrangements? Don’t like shift work? Don’t take a job that requires it, but don’t ban others who do prefer it from taking it because you don’t like it.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  For the same reason we, as a society, place wage floors, etc. The crime committed when two people form a lopsided employment relationship isn’t really against either of them (because clearly each is deriving sufficient utility); it’s against us. We don’t want to be employed in this manner so we prevent the existence of these things.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Who is we? Some people prefer to work at different times. Maybe they like having sunlight in their free time instead of their work time.
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      “We” is a generalized aggregate of society weighted by political power. Some people also prefer to work for less than minimum wage because they are on the wrong side of an information asymmetry. And yet they cannot. Because they have not sinned against themselves or their employer but against us.
      - Ericson2314 5y ago
        I agree. Some workschedules are quite toxic, and (perhaps biased as someone sensitive to circadian rhythm disturbances) would prefer not to see this normalized as it is today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_work#/media/File:Child_Labor_in_United_States_1908,_12_hour_night_shifts.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_work#/media/File:Child_L... I don't want that to come back either. > Maybe they like having sunlight in their free time instead of their work time. With a real night shift (3rd shift) your body would strongly want to sleep through all the good sunlight anyways. And if you do stay up for it, well good luck enjoying any part of the day. Anyways to some it all up, maybe PP should check out https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674238091 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674238091
        lamontcg 5y ago
        > Some workschedules are quite toxic I'd say our default 9-5 workschedule is toxic.
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      Have you done shift work? I worked 3rd (11-7) and then 2nd (3-11) shifts a couple years ago. You don't end up 'having sunlight in...free time instead of work time' unless you are sacrificing sleep for it on 3rd shift. I had a short commute and was able to get reasonable sleep most of the time, in about a year I made 1 driving decision I'd call 'bad', and that was just pulling out somewhat aggressively in front of light traffic (I started taking a route that didn't have that decision after that).
      - brewdad 5y ago
        Growing up, my Dad had a few years working odd shifts. 3rd shift was the hardest on him physically as he had a really hard time sleeping during daylight hours. 2nd shift was the one that made him demand a return to 1st shift. There was about 18 months where I lived in the same house as him and literally never saw him. He would leave before I returned from school and arrive home after we were asleep. In the mornings, we'd be off to school again before he woke up. Combined with him having to work 3 of 4 weekends a month, it was hard on all of us. He did what he needed to provide for us and I am grateful but I'm more grateful that he's enjoying a decent retirement today.
        maxerickson 5y ago
        Yeah, I was able to sleep pretty well and don't have kids. There were definitely people on 3rd so that they could see/help with their kids more. I switched to 2nd because the sleep schedule isn't offset during off time, but it would be a lot harder if that meant not seeing your family much of the time.
        actually_a_dog 5y ago
        Speaking of dads and third shift, I'm fully convinced that working 3rd shift for as many years as he did contributed too him developing diabetes.
      - myspy 5y ago
        Night shift work in factories is also accompanied by unrealistic expectations. It's expected to work as efficient as during daylight shifts and personally I wasn't able to achieve that. A couple of people did that, but I don't think that anything of this is healthy or good for the worker. Sleeping during the morning isn't that great, you need really good blinds and sometimes ear protection because it's loud out there. If we were build to work during the night, we would have headlights instead of eyes was a pretty good union slogan during my time. I'm happy I moved on but would think it would be better for everyone to not work during the night as during the day.
    - cafard 5y ago
      I have done shift work, and disliked it. Sunlight makes it harder to sleep, unless you have shutters. You are tend to miss out on social interaction.
  - jklein11 5y ago
    I'm having a hard time figuring out if you are being sarcastic or not.
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      Why? I have no problem with the non-sarcastic interpretation of the comment you're referring to.
- stainforth 5y ago
  I don't want to be manslaughtered by this person on my morning commute, simple. When the courts and insurance companies shift, we will make your side on these things moot.
  - Wohlf 5y ago
    You have much greater odds of killing yourself or a pedestrian within a mile of your home because you weren't paying attention than being hit by a tired driver.
- DayDollar 5y ago
  Because its a shitty deal, like cigaretts are? You get social alienated, your health suffers and if you calculate the health-risk cost vs the more earned money during lifetime, it turns out nightshift workers actually earn less. Its a "use-equipment-at-all-costs" method praying on the social weak and un-educated.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    It turns out that people need healthcare and fire/police coverage around the clock. A lot of retail and grocery restocking is done overnight when the stores are empty for customer safety and convenience. A lot of goods are moved, loaded, and unloaded at night so they can arrive fresh to market or to move overnight for the next business day. By no means is this only "run this large piece of capital equipment most efficiently".
  - canadianfella 5y ago
    That’s very authoritarian of you.
treeman79 5y ago
My area only just restored bus service a week ago. Many nearby places closed in part because workers had no way to arrive without a bus.
ekianjo 5y ago
> Public transit is the only option. You don't seem to realize that jobs are not always in dense areas.
- burnished 5y ago
  I know that the conversation wasn't in depth, but I'd like to point out that 'public transit' also includes shuttles, it doesn't just mean 'city bus with schedule determined by best fit for public use'. Depending on circumstance a couple shuttles to a couple 'park and rides' could smooth out some issues. Maybe some one smarter than me could devise an elegant way to handle the last mile.
  - Ericson2314 5y ago
    I meant good option: a normative not descriptive statement. So either we build more public transit, or relocate night shifts away from areas without it. If the job is at a giant factory of some sort outside the city, I would like to see some sort of shuttle between the factory and a transit station. I am not sure how safe park-and-rides are during that last mile, but housing for commuters ought to be in areas dense enough to not require cars, even if the commuters are doing some sort of reverse commute.
- Tiktaalik 5y ago
  Not building public transit is a political choice, not some natural way of things
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    building and maintaining a reliable public transit takes a lot of resources and planning, things that politicians are notoriously bad at managing. In France there's a lot of public transit but it is plagued by strikes all the time making it completely unreliable to use it for work.
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    Not entirely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...
cortesoft 5y ago
Many cities don't run public transportation at night. Even the ones that do run reduced routes.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Public transit is the only option. Often not an option, as grave/swing shift often has the end that isn’t in common with day shift facing reduced frequency or no service on public transit lines.

sokoloff 5y ago

Many night shift jobs already pay a shift differential. Many employees seek out those shifts. Why would we, as a society, want to prevent these seemingly mutually beneficial arrangements? Don’t like shift work? Don’t take a job that requires it, but don’t ban others who do prefer it from taking it because you don’t like it.

renewiltord 5y ago
For the same reason we, as a society, place wage floors, etc. The crime committed when two people form a lopsided employment relationship isn’t really against either of them (because clearly each is deriving sufficient utility); it’s against us. We don’t want to be employed in this manner so we prevent the existence of these things.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Who is we? Some people prefer to work at different times. Maybe they like having sunlight in their free time instead of their work time.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    “We” is a generalized aggregate of society weighted by political power. Some people also prefer to work for less than minimum wage because they are on the wrong side of an information asymmetry. And yet they cannot. Because they have not sinned against themselves or their employer but against us.
    - Ericson2314 5y ago
      I agree. Some workschedules are quite toxic, and (perhaps biased as someone sensitive to circadian rhythm disturbances) would prefer not to see this normalized as it is today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_work#/media/File:Child_Labor_in_United_States_1908,_12_hour_night_shifts.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_work#/media/File:Child_L... I don't want that to come back either. > Maybe they like having sunlight in their free time instead of their work time. With a real night shift (3rd shift) your body would strongly want to sleep through all the good sunlight anyways. And if you do stay up for it, well good luck enjoying any part of the day. Anyways to some it all up, maybe PP should check out https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674238091 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674238091
      - lamontcg 5y ago
        > Some workschedules are quite toxic I'd say our default 9-5 workschedule is toxic.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    Have you done shift work? I worked 3rd (11-7) and then 2nd (3-11) shifts a couple years ago. You don't end up 'having sunlight in...free time instead of work time' unless you are sacrificing sleep for it on 3rd shift. I had a short commute and was able to get reasonable sleep most of the time, in about a year I made 1 driving decision I'd call 'bad', and that was just pulling out somewhat aggressively in front of light traffic (I started taking a route that didn't have that decision after that).
    - brewdad 5y ago
      Growing up, my Dad had a few years working odd shifts. 3rd shift was the hardest on him physically as he had a really hard time sleeping during daylight hours. 2nd shift was the one that made him demand a return to 1st shift. There was about 18 months where I lived in the same house as him and literally never saw him. He would leave before I returned from school and arrive home after we were asleep. In the mornings, we'd be off to school again before he woke up. Combined with him having to work 3 of 4 weekends a month, it was hard on all of us. He did what he needed to provide for us and I am grateful but I'm more grateful that he's enjoying a decent retirement today.
      - maxerickson 5y ago
        Yeah, I was able to sleep pretty well and don't have kids. There were definitely people on 3rd so that they could see/help with their kids more. I switched to 2nd because the sleep schedule isn't offset during off time, but it would be a lot harder if that meant not seeing your family much of the time.
      - actually_a_dog 5y ago
        Speaking of dads and third shift, I'm fully convinced that working 3rd shift for as many years as he did contributed too him developing diabetes.
    - myspy 5y ago
      Night shift work in factories is also accompanied by unrealistic expectations. It's expected to work as efficient as during daylight shifts and personally I wasn't able to achieve that. A couple of people did that, but I don't think that anything of this is healthy or good for the worker. Sleeping during the morning isn't that great, you need really good blinds and sometimes ear protection because it's loud out there. If we were build to work during the night, we would have headlights instead of eyes was a pretty good union slogan during my time. I'm happy I moved on but would think it would be better for everyone to not work during the night as during the day.
  - cafard 5y ago
    I have done shift work, and disliked it. Sunlight makes it harder to sleep, unless you have shutters. You are tend to miss out on social interaction.
- jklein11 5y ago
  I'm having a hard time figuring out if you are being sarcastic or not.
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    Why? I have no problem with the non-sarcastic interpretation of the comment you're referring to.
stainforth 5y ago
I don't want to be manslaughtered by this person on my morning commute, simple. When the courts and insurance companies shift, we will make your side on these things moot.
- Wohlf 5y ago
  You have much greater odds of killing yourself or a pedestrian within a mile of your home because you weren't paying attention than being hit by a tired driver.
DayDollar 5y ago
Because its a shitty deal, like cigaretts are? You get social alienated, your health suffers and if you calculate the health-risk cost vs the more earned money during lifetime, it turns out nightshift workers actually earn less. Its a "use-equipment-at-all-costs" method praying on the social weak and un-educated.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  It turns out that people need healthcare and fire/police coverage around the clock. A lot of retail and grocery restocking is done overnight when the stores are empty for customer safety and convenience. A lot of goods are moved, loaded, and unloaded at night so they can arrive fresh to market or to move overnight for the next business day. By no means is this only "run this large piece of capital equipment most efficiently".
- canadianfella 5y ago
  That’s very authoritarian of you.

treeman79 5y ago

My area only just restored bus service a week ago. Many nearby places closed in part because workers had no way to arrive without a bus.

ekianjo 5y ago

> Public transit is the only option. You don't seem to realize that jobs are not always in dense areas.

burnished 5y ago
I know that the conversation wasn't in depth, but I'd like to point out that 'public transit' also includes shuttles, it doesn't just mean 'city bus with schedule determined by best fit for public use'. Depending on circumstance a couple shuttles to a couple 'park and rides' could smooth out some issues. Maybe some one smarter than me could devise an elegant way to handle the last mile.
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  I meant good option: a normative not descriptive statement. So either we build more public transit, or relocate night shifts away from areas without it. If the job is at a giant factory of some sort outside the city, I would like to see some sort of shuttle between the factory and a transit station. I am not sure how safe park-and-rides are during that last mile, but housing for commuters ought to be in areas dense enough to not require cars, even if the commuters are doing some sort of reverse commute.
Tiktaalik 5y ago
Not building public transit is a political choice, not some natural way of things
- ekianjo 5y ago
  building and maintaining a reliable public transit takes a lot of resources and planning, things that politicians are notoriously bad at managing. In France there's a lot of public transit but it is plagued by strikes all the time making it completely unreliable to use it for work.
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  Not entirely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

cortesoft 5y ago

Many cities don't run public transportation at night. Even the ones that do run reduced routes.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Public transit is the only option. Often not an option, as grave/swing shift often has the end that isn’t in common with day shift facing reduced frequency or no service on public transit lines.