5 ms·

Horseshoe crab blood: miracle vaccine ingredient that's saved millions of lives

40 points by dricornelius 5y ago

namuol 5y ago
Radiolab had a nice podcast about this fascinating subject back in 2018 (re-aired July 2020): https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/baby-blue-blood-drive https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/baby-...
neighbour 5y ago
The image of those crabs bleeding out is pretty shocking even for someone like myself who hunts my own meat. Are they alive during this process?
- adrianpike 5y ago
  They are, yes, and in general they survive the process: https://web.archive.org/web/20130622155603/http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-12172003-122534/unrestricted/HurtonThesis.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20130622155603/http://scholar.li...
- aarongolliver 5y ago
  If you click the BI link under the image [0] and watch the video they say they're still alive, and that they try to only drain 30% of their blood before putting them back in the ocean. But (paraphrasing) up to 30% don't survive the process and "no one really knows if they even recover down there". [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/why-horseshoe-crab-blood-expensive-2018-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/why-horseshoe-crab-blood-exp...
  - rozab 5y ago
    >no one really knows if they even recover down there It seems like it would be pretty easy to find out. I guess there isn't much motivation to open that can of worms.
    - nomel 5y ago
      If the answer is a hard no, then you could fully bleed out just 1/3 of the crabs. My naive assumption is that this would help guarantee a stable population, which would probably be beneficial to the bleeders.
  - wuschel 5y ago
    It is tricky to get correct information here, as many of the organization that are related to the conservation of the species are funded by the main producers of LAL based endotoxin tests (and hence bleeders, or procurers of Horseshoe crab blood). At this point, Horseshoe crabs are critical infrastructure in qualityquality control for Pharma and medtech. Source: Co-founded biotech startup in the horseshoe crab space that had to fold.
- ghiygjuy 5y ago
  Crabs have basically insect brains, 10 times less neurons than a bee. Can they suffer? That's an interesting question. It's probably their size throwing you off, would you feel the same about a cricket in that position?
  - msrenee 5y ago
    Horseshoe crabs aren't crabs. They're distantly related, although both are arthropods. Not much brain activity going on there. But honestly pain and suffering are so hard to nail down outside the tetrapods. I'd say the fact that until we started harvesting their blood more sustainably, they pretty much all died is enough of a reason to harvest them more sustainably, regardless of how we define the ability to suffer. They're an important food source for a lot of different animals and we shouldn't be damaging their numbers when we can get the same product without killing them. Also, they like to hump fishermen's boots during breeding season, which is absolutely hilarious and I think well worth preserving the species.
- B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
  Do you give blood? I do, sometimes I'm in a room with a few other people bleeding red into pouches. I do not find it upsetting, naturally.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    Presumably you aren't abducted by creatures beyond your comprehension who start draining your blood without asking! I don't suspect the crabs have any real understanding of what's happening so the morality of it is ambiguous, but your analogy isn't really analogous.
- dariusj18 5y ago
  That is some Cronenberg looking shit
legerdemain 5y ago
Depending on whether you were a bug nerd as a child, horseshoe crabs are either incredibly fascinating to look at or face hugger-level terrifying to look at. Perhaps luckily for us all, vinegaroons don't seem to have any medical applications.
Metacelsus 5y ago
Contrary to the title, the blood isn't used as a vaccine ingredient. It's used to test the vaccines for bacterial toxins.
- mateo1 5y ago
  You'd think they'd use some kind of chromatography to test each batch, right? And also test the reactors for contamination, after all bacterial toxins require bacteria. Don't they do this sort of QC?
  - salawat 5y ago
    Doesn't work that way with organic chem as I understand it. You'd just see spectral lines for carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen and whatever else atomwise is in the toxin, but it isn't those atoms themselves that make it toxic, it's their arrangement in reference to each other. You need the right enzyme to produce a chemical reaction to measure to get an affirmative result; an enzyme being a molecular structure optimized to lower the activation energy of a particular chemical reaction by making the ideal physical conditions for it to take place. Chromatography requires either stratifying the mixture in a fluid, or vaporizing it, which kinda defeats the purpose. Yet more evidence Organic chemistry is God's way of saying he hates Chemists.
    - mateo1 5y ago
      Well there is gel chromatography, electrophoresis, light based techniques etc, but I don't know how well they fare for molecules of this size, sensitivity and relative concentrations.
type0 5y ago
They're absolutely fascinating prehistoric creatures, this is just another reminder why we don't want species to go extinct. Nature is the biggest inventor on this planet, not humans.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

40 points by dricornelius 5y ago

Radiolab had a nice podcast about this fascinating subject back in 2018 (re-aired July 2020): https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/baby-blue-blood-drive https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/baby-...

neighbour 5y ago

The image of those crabs bleeding out is pretty shocking even for someone like myself who hunts my own meat. Are they alive during this process?

adrianpike 5y ago
They are, yes, and in general they survive the process: https://web.archive.org/web/20130622155603/http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-12172003-122534/unrestricted/HurtonThesis.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20130622155603/http://scholar.li...
aarongolliver 5y ago
If you click the BI link under the image [0] and watch the video they say they're still alive, and that they try to only drain 30% of their blood before putting them back in the ocean. But (paraphrasing) up to 30% don't survive the process and "no one really knows if they even recover down there". [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/why-horseshoe-crab-blood-expensive-2018-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/why-horseshoe-crab-blood-exp...
- rozab 5y ago
  >no one really knows if they even recover down there It seems like it would be pretty easy to find out. I guess there isn't much motivation to open that can of worms.
  - nomel 5y ago
    If the answer is a hard no, then you could fully bleed out just 1/3 of the crabs. My naive assumption is that this would help guarantee a stable population, which would probably be beneficial to the bleeders.
- wuschel 5y ago
  It is tricky to get correct information here, as many of the organization that are related to the conservation of the species are funded by the main producers of LAL based endotoxin tests (and hence bleeders, or procurers of Horseshoe crab blood). At this point, Horseshoe crabs are critical infrastructure in qualityquality control for Pharma and medtech. Source: Co-founded biotech startup in the horseshoe crab space that had to fold.
ghiygjuy 5y ago
Crabs have basically insect brains, 10 times less neurons than a bee. Can they suffer? That's an interesting question. It's probably their size throwing you off, would you feel the same about a cricket in that position?
- msrenee 5y ago
  Horseshoe crabs aren't crabs. They're distantly related, although both are arthropods. Not much brain activity going on there. But honestly pain and suffering are so hard to nail down outside the tetrapods. I'd say the fact that until we started harvesting their blood more sustainably, they pretty much all died is enough of a reason to harvest them more sustainably, regardless of how we define the ability to suffer. They're an important food source for a lot of different animals and we shouldn't be damaging their numbers when we can get the same product without killing them. Also, they like to hump fishermen's boots during breeding season, which is absolutely hilarious and I think well worth preserving the species.
B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
Do you give blood? I do, sometimes I'm in a room with a few other people bleeding red into pouches. I do not find it upsetting, naturally.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  Presumably you aren't abducted by creatures beyond your comprehension who start draining your blood without asking! I don't suspect the crabs have any real understanding of what's happening so the morality of it is ambiguous, but your analogy isn't really analogous.
dariusj18 5y ago
That is some Cronenberg looking shit

legerdemain 5y ago

Depending on whether you were a bug nerd as a child, horseshoe crabs are either incredibly fascinating to look at or face hugger-level terrifying to look at. Perhaps luckily for us all, vinegaroons don't seem to have any medical applications.

Metacelsus 5y ago

Contrary to the title, the blood isn't used as a vaccine ingredient. It's used to test the vaccines for bacterial toxins.

mateo1 5y ago
You'd think they'd use some kind of chromatography to test each batch, right? And also test the reactors for contamination, after all bacterial toxins require bacteria. Don't they do this sort of QC?
- salawat 5y ago
  Doesn't work that way with organic chem as I understand it. You'd just see spectral lines for carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen and whatever else atomwise is in the toxin, but it isn't those atoms themselves that make it toxic, it's their arrangement in reference to each other. You need the right enzyme to produce a chemical reaction to measure to get an affirmative result; an enzyme being a molecular structure optimized to lower the activation energy of a particular chemical reaction by making the ideal physical conditions for it to take place. Chromatography requires either stratifying the mixture in a fluid, or vaporizing it, which kinda defeats the purpose. Yet more evidence Organic chemistry is God's way of saying he hates Chemists.
  - mateo1 5y ago
    Well there is gel chromatography, electrophoresis, light based techniques etc, but I don't know how well they fare for molecules of this size, sensitivity and relative concentrations.

type0 5y ago

They're absolutely fascinating prehistoric creatures, this is just another reminder why we don't want species to go extinct. Nature is the biggest inventor on this planet, not humans.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]