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Tangentially related but where does this come from and why is it so widely repeated (as in this article): > ...Gaza, one of the most densely populated places i

Tangentially related but where does this come from and why is it so widely repeated (as in this article): > ...Gaza, one of the most densely populated places in the world I've seen this claim (both in the "one of the most..." and "the #1 most..." forms) many times and I don't know where it comes from. What am I missing? Here[0] wikipedia says Gaza Strip has ~5,046/sqkm. I thought maybe Gaza City was meant, it's density is 13,000/sqkm[1]. Neither of these come close to ranking on wikipedias list of cities by population density[2], and I haven't been able to find any "most populated places" lists that list anything below 15,000 people per square kilometer, which Gaza city is well below. Is the BBC just plain wrong here or am I missing something? I hope it's me because if it's the former, that says something really bad about their fact checking and would suggest that BBC is not a reliable/trustworthy source, at least on this topic. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_City 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density

jcranmer 5y ago
You're probably missing this listing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen... Where Gaza listed as its own country, it would be one of the densest, since it's basically a city and its urban sprawl and nothing more (like the other densest entries on the list). Of course, Gaza is itself arguably only part of Palestine, but the West Bank itself is pretty dense (see how high Palestine ranks on that list).
- djhn 5y ago
  That sounds like "technically correct with caveats".
  - Kranar 5y ago
    So does OPs entire post. Gaza is, by all reasonable accounts, among the most densely populated areas in the world. There's no real reason to start questioning the credibility and trustworthiness of a news organization over the fact that Gaza is referred to as such, it's a very bizarre thing to fixate over.
    - sequoia 5y ago
      Your point about my argument regarding BBC's credibility based on this one point is fair, I can see how my argument can reasonably be considered overstated. Your point about "fixating" (assuming you're referring to me) is not fair. If you want to accuse someone of being fixated on this point, please direct your critique at the BBC and other media outlets who repeat the phrase about Gaza and only Gaza (not all of the other more populous places) constantly.
      - mcguire 5y ago
        Perhaps you are overly sensitive to this issue? I've more often heard the phrase from the BBC in regard to Singapore or Hong Kong.
      - astura 5y ago
        In this case it makes perfect sense to mention how densely populated Gaza is because the reader probably doesn't know much about Gaza other than it's occupied by Israel. Every other area with the population density of Gaza looks very different on Google Maps.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - faizmokhtar 5y ago
      See OPs above comment and you can see where his standpoint is so it's not that surprising.
- sequoia 5y ago
  Looking at the country list, I see Israel is the #5 most densely populated country in the world. And Bnei Brak is the #5 most densely populated city, far more densely populated than Gaza. Bnei Brak was hit by rockets this week. Can you link me to some articles that refer to "Hamas firing rockets on Bnei Brak, one of the most densely populated cities in the world"? Or "on israel, one of the most densely populated countries"? If not, my question for you is: why do we see this phrase so commonly in reporting on Gaza but not on other more densely populated areas?
  - golergka 5y ago
    Same reason that this conflict always gets the same optics in international media — jewish lives are worth less. At first, as you don't want to believe it, you argue, you investigate, you really try to find any sane reason that while these things are happening on ground with you and your family, everybody else still sees a different picture, and then you just come to realisation that there's no other explanation for it.
    - golemiprague 5y ago
      Indeed, there is also the discussion on "proportionality" or "civilian buildings" which never appears in any other conflict. When proportinality is discussed it is always some demand from Israel to equal number of total killed, not the actual proportion of militants killed vs. civilians. Nobody suggest that Israel should kill 10 civilians for each militant , which is the rate of Israeli killed by Gazans, one soldier and 10 civilians. Note also the diversion from "civilians" to "civilian buildings". Since the Gaza militant are operating from positions which are not distinuishable from regular civilian building the media now complains why those position are bombed. So now Israel is not allowed to kill militant because of the way the balcony looks. The more accurate and careful Israel become the media narrow the definition of what is a military target. Basically they demand different standards from Israel than from any other country, which is discrimination and therefore when directed to only one nation, racism. I am not surprised, media and politicians must cater for the growing Muslim population in western contry and to the overwhelming majority in social media, a billion Muslims vs 10 million Jews. Every claim by the Muslims is multiplied and reverberating by the echo chamber. So the media just follows to cater for them, it is a bit of decision besuiness and a bit of a political belief peppered with classic racism against Jews. If google had an option they would have been on the Muslims side with no hesitation, it is just the current laws that prevented them.
tryonenow 5y ago
Palestinians and supporters of their side of the conflict have incentive to exaggerate their plight, as does Israel. When the media is sympathetic to one side (as it has been increasingly and especially during this latest conflict), it will rarely fact check its own. So certain white lies and embellishments are repeated and collectively they distort reporting without necessarily being outright false. This is not unique to reporting on the West Bank. And it's a major problem with US media especially - but you're not likely to find any "reputable" sources on the subject.
exegete 5y ago
It must just be something that gets repeated without verification at this point. For comparison Gaza City has a slightly higher population density than NYC (but less than Hoboken, NJ) while the entire Gaza Strip has the same population density as Boston (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities...).
- chimeracoder 5y ago
  > For comparison Gaza City has a slightly higher population density than NYC (but less than Hoboken, NJ) while the entire Gaza Strip has the same population density as Boston Comparing Gaza to Boston is a bit misleading. Boston is closely integrated into an entire metro area, and the city limits of Boston are artifacts of history. Comparing to NYC is even less meaningful, because NYC is part of an integrated tri-state area and also the geographical center of a larger connected megopolis that contains 1/6th of the population of the entire US. Gaza, on the other hand, is a strip of land the size of Queens (New York), and it is entirely cut off from everything around it (both land and sea). People who live in Gaza never leave, and nobody else enters. There's no "commuting" to or from Gaza.
  - exegete 5y ago
    I’m sorry if I came across as trying to minimize the dire situation those who live in Gaza are in. You’re right - people in NYC don’t have a foreign power controlling their airspace and shoreline as well as the numerous other differences. I was responding to the idea that it has a higher population density than most other cities and giving some comparisons solely on that metric.
    - bombcar 5y ago
      The closest comparison that leaps immediately to mind would be Hong Kong. But I think the underlying theme is that descriptive words can editorialize - which is pretty obvious.
  - mhb 5y ago
Kranar 5y ago
Can you find a single reference stating that it's the most dense city or area in the world? I tried looking for one but failed. There are well over 10,000 cities in the world and Gaza City is likely among the top 500 for population density, which would put it in the top 5%. Do you generally call things out as being untrustworthy for claiming that the top 5% is among the highest in a rank?
- sequoia 5y ago
  Here is a single reference: https://www.middleeastobserver.org/2016/07/12/pcbs-reports-gaza-strip-is-the-most-densely-populated-place-on-earth https://www.middleeastobserver.org/2016/07/12/pcbs-reports-g... "Do you generally call things out as being untrustworthy for claiming that the top 5% is among the highest in a rank?" The reason I consider this claim "misleading" is that I never see the "one of the most densely populated..." phrase on stories about Paris, Kathmandu, Seoul or any of the hundreds of more densely populated areas, yet I constantly see it in reference relatively much-less-densely-populated Gaza. When I start seeing news stories that read "The mayor of Hoboken NJ, one of the most densely populated areas of the world, opposes a measure that would increase affordable housing..." then the phrase won't make me scratch my head anymore. Why does this phrase always come up in relation to Gaza and not the hundreds of other cities/regions that are more densely populated? If we're trading references, can you show me some where the BBC refers to Paris as "one of the most densely populated places in the world?"
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    Are Paris, Kathmandu, Seol, or Hoboken under blockade by a government that claims their land but makes the people on that land stateless, and also periodically bombs their urban infrastructure? It's possible that the density of gaza is in some way relevant to the current events taking place there in a way that it might not be for the other places you've listed.
    - sequoia 5y ago
      There are plenty of stories where this would be relevant. "Many refugees are landing in suburbs of Paris, one of the most densely populated..." "...rural Korean population is flocking to Seoul, one of the most..." Anyway it's clear that Gaza is a densely populated area. I still consider the highly selective use of the "one of the most" phrasing curious. For the record I think it's bad to drop bombs onto (or fire rockets into) civilian areas even if they are only sparsely populated, for what it's worth.
avip 5y ago
Gaza would have ranked 5th on population density, or 3rd if you remove places with tiny population (i.e take a "pop > 1MM" threshold). It's basically after Singapore and Hong-Kong.
- sequoia 5y ago
  Can you walk me through your thinking here? I don’t quite follow. I am listening and open to being wrong.
  - avip 5y ago
    Thinking? I didn't do any. I divided the #pop by #area in units I can relate to (Km^2), then looked at the table and figured out it would be #5.
    - sequoia 5y ago
      Ok I think I’m able to piece back together what you’re talking about: it sounds like you’re ranking Gaza on the list of most densely populated “Country (or dependent territory)” but excluding cities. The article refers to it as one of the most densely populated “places” in the world. What’s the reason for excluding cities when ranking the most densely populated places in the world? When I imagine “the most densely populated places in the world” I think first of cities, I assume most people do.
      - eightysixfour 5y ago
        They are not removing cities blindly, they are only including cities with more than 1m people. That removes places like Pateros which, while incredibly dense, are not particularly populous.
        sequoia 5y ago
        Avip is not including cities when s/he ranks Gaza #5, s/he is only including countries. If I asked you "what's the most densely populated place in the world?" you would probably answer with the name of a city. Avip is excluding cities from his "densely populated places" ranking. This doesn't make sense to me. If you say "world's most densely populated places" of course I'm going to think of cities, as anyone would.
idownvoted 5y ago
You're missing the intention of those pushing this claim: Painting Israel as running a prison intentionally bad, or vice-versa making Gaza the new Warsaw-Ghetto. If other commentators can't note the rediculousness of putting Gaza next to Tokio, Singapur or Hong Kong, I will: A place with virtually no economy outside of NGOs, the Hamas and UN-Orgs vs. economic beacons that draw talent from all over the world.
smolder 5y ago
It's maybe worth noting that objective metrics of population density are generally by land area and subjectively, density is about floor space or even volumetric. Building size could have a big impact on what is perceived as population dense.
dalbasal 5y ago
Articles citing articles citing articles... aka cliche. They're not really wrong. The definition of "place" is just arbitrary, so it's always "debatable.^" Bnei Brak, incidentally, is also often described as the densest place in the world. It's just in other contexts that don't interest an international readership. It was mentioned often, in covid related contexts. ^Meaning, pointlessly debateable.
markdown 5y ago
> Neither of these come close to ranking on wikipedias list of cities by population density > Is the BBC just plain wrong here or am I missing something? What you're missing is that you don't have to be anywhere near that list to be one of the most densely populated places in the world. Most of the world is empty.

jcranmer 5y ago

You're probably missing this listing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen... Where Gaza listed as its own country, it would be one of the densest, since it's basically a city and its urban sprawl and nothing more (like the other densest entries on the list). Of course, Gaza is itself arguably only part of Palestine, but the West Bank itself is pretty dense (see how high Palestine ranks on that list).

djhn 5y ago
That sounds like "technically correct with caveats".
- Kranar 5y ago
  So does OPs entire post. Gaza is, by all reasonable accounts, among the most densely populated areas in the world. There's no real reason to start questioning the credibility and trustworthiness of a news organization over the fact that Gaza is referred to as such, it's a very bizarre thing to fixate over.
  - sequoia 5y ago
    Your point about my argument regarding BBC's credibility based on this one point is fair, I can see how my argument can reasonably be considered overstated. Your point about "fixating" (assuming you're referring to me) is not fair. If you want to accuse someone of being fixated on this point, please direct your critique at the BBC and other media outlets who repeat the phrase about Gaza and only Gaza (not all of the other more populous places) constantly.
    - mcguire 5y ago
      Perhaps you are overly sensitive to this issue? I've more often heard the phrase from the BBC in regard to Singapore or Hong Kong.
    - astura 5y ago
      In this case it makes perfect sense to mention how densely populated Gaza is because the reader probably doesn't know much about Gaza other than it's occupied by Israel. Every other area with the population density of Gaza looks very different on Google Maps.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - faizmokhtar 5y ago
    See OPs above comment and you can see where his standpoint is so it's not that surprising.
sequoia 5y ago
Looking at the country list, I see Israel is the #5 most densely populated country in the world. And Bnei Brak is the #5 most densely populated city, far more densely populated than Gaza. Bnei Brak was hit by rockets this week. Can you link me to some articles that refer to "Hamas firing rockets on Bnei Brak, one of the most densely populated cities in the world"? Or "on israel, one of the most densely populated countries"? If not, my question for you is: why do we see this phrase so commonly in reporting on Gaza but not on other more densely populated areas?
- golergka 5y ago
  Same reason that this conflict always gets the same optics in international media — jewish lives are worth less. At first, as you don't want to believe it, you argue, you investigate, you really try to find any sane reason that while these things are happening on ground with you and your family, everybody else still sees a different picture, and then you just come to realisation that there's no other explanation for it.
  - golemiprague 5y ago
    Indeed, there is also the discussion on "proportionality" or "civilian buildings" which never appears in any other conflict. When proportinality is discussed it is always some demand from Israel to equal number of total killed, not the actual proportion of militants killed vs. civilians. Nobody suggest that Israel should kill 10 civilians for each militant , which is the rate of Israeli killed by Gazans, one soldier and 10 civilians. Note also the diversion from "civilians" to "civilian buildings". Since the Gaza militant are operating from positions which are not distinuishable from regular civilian building the media now complains why those position are bombed. So now Israel is not allowed to kill militant because of the way the balcony looks. The more accurate and careful Israel become the media narrow the definition of what is a military target. Basically they demand different standards from Israel than from any other country, which is discrimination and therefore when directed to only one nation, racism. I am not surprised, media and politicians must cater for the growing Muslim population in western contry and to the overwhelming majority in social media, a billion Muslims vs 10 million Jews. Every claim by the Muslims is multiplied and reverberating by the echo chamber. So the media just follows to cater for them, it is a bit of decision besuiness and a bit of a political belief peppered with classic racism against Jews. If google had an option they would have been on the Muslims side with no hesitation, it is just the current laws that prevented them.

tryonenow 5y ago

Palestinians and supporters of their side of the conflict have incentive to exaggerate their plight, as does Israel. When the media is sympathetic to one side (as it has been increasingly and especially during this latest conflict), it will rarely fact check its own. So certain white lies and embellishments are repeated and collectively they distort reporting without necessarily being outright false. This is not unique to reporting on the West Bank. And it's a major problem with US media especially - but you're not likely to find any "reputable" sources on the subject.

exegete 5y ago

It must just be something that gets repeated without verification at this point. For comparison Gaza City has a slightly higher population density than NYC (but less than Hoboken, NJ) while the entire Gaza Strip has the same population density as Boston (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities...).

chimeracoder 5y ago
> For comparison Gaza City has a slightly higher population density than NYC (but less than Hoboken, NJ) while the entire Gaza Strip has the same population density as Boston Comparing Gaza to Boston is a bit misleading. Boston is closely integrated into an entire metro area, and the city limits of Boston are artifacts of history. Comparing to NYC is even less meaningful, because NYC is part of an integrated tri-state area and also the geographical center of a larger connected megopolis that contains 1/6th of the population of the entire US. Gaza, on the other hand, is a strip of land the size of Queens (New York), and it is entirely cut off from everything around it (both land and sea). People who live in Gaza never leave, and nobody else enters. There's no "commuting" to or from Gaza.
- exegete 5y ago
  I’m sorry if I came across as trying to minimize the dire situation those who live in Gaza are in. You’re right - people in NYC don’t have a foreign power controlling their airspace and shoreline as well as the numerous other differences. I was responding to the idea that it has a higher population density than most other cities and giving some comparisons solely on that metric.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    The closest comparison that leaps immediately to mind would be Hong Kong. But I think the underlying theme is that descriptive words can editorialize - which is pretty obvious.
- mhb 5y ago

Kranar 5y ago

Can you find a single reference stating that it's the most dense city or area in the world? I tried looking for one but failed. There are well over 10,000 cities in the world and Gaza City is likely among the top 500 for population density, which would put it in the top 5%. Do you generally call things out as being untrustworthy for claiming that the top 5% is among the highest in a rank?

sequoia 5y ago
Here is a single reference: https://www.middleeastobserver.org/2016/07/12/pcbs-reports-gaza-strip-is-the-most-densely-populated-place-on-earth https://www.middleeastobserver.org/2016/07/12/pcbs-reports-g... "Do you generally call things out as being untrustworthy for claiming that the top 5% is among the highest in a rank?" The reason I consider this claim "misleading" is that I never see the "one of the most densely populated..." phrase on stories about Paris, Kathmandu, Seoul or any of the hundreds of more densely populated areas, yet I constantly see it in reference relatively much-less-densely-populated Gaza. When I start seeing news stories that read "The mayor of Hoboken NJ, one of the most densely populated areas of the world, opposes a measure that would increase affordable housing..." then the phrase won't make me scratch my head anymore. Why does this phrase always come up in relation to Gaza and not the hundreds of other cities/regions that are more densely populated? If we're trading references, can you show me some where the BBC refers to Paris as "one of the most densely populated places in the world?"
- stormbrew 5y ago
  Are Paris, Kathmandu, Seol, or Hoboken under blockade by a government that claims their land but makes the people on that land stateless, and also periodically bombs their urban infrastructure? It's possible that the density of gaza is in some way relevant to the current events taking place there in a way that it might not be for the other places you've listed.
  - sequoia 5y ago
    There are plenty of stories where this would be relevant. "Many refugees are landing in suburbs of Paris, one of the most densely populated..." "...rural Korean population is flocking to Seoul, one of the most..." Anyway it's clear that Gaza is a densely populated area. I still consider the highly selective use of the "one of the most" phrasing curious. For the record I think it's bad to drop bombs onto (or fire rockets into) civilian areas even if they are only sparsely populated, for what it's worth.

avip 5y ago

Gaza would have ranked 5th on population density, or 3rd if you remove places with tiny population (i.e take a "pop > 1MM" threshold). It's basically after Singapore and Hong-Kong.

sequoia 5y ago
Can you walk me through your thinking here? I don’t quite follow. I am listening and open to being wrong.
- avip 5y ago
  Thinking? I didn't do any. I divided the #pop by #area in units I can relate to (Km^2), then looked at the table and figured out it would be #5.
  - sequoia 5y ago
    Ok I think I’m able to piece back together what you’re talking about: it sounds like you’re ranking Gaza on the list of most densely populated “Country (or dependent territory)” but excluding cities. The article refers to it as one of the most densely populated “places” in the world. What’s the reason for excluding cities when ranking the most densely populated places in the world? When I imagine “the most densely populated places in the world” I think first of cities, I assume most people do.
    - eightysixfour 5y ago
      They are not removing cities blindly, they are only including cities with more than 1m people. That removes places like Pateros which, while incredibly dense, are not particularly populous.
      - sequoia 5y ago
        Avip is not including cities when s/he ranks Gaza #5, s/he is only including countries. If I asked you "what's the most densely populated place in the world?" you would probably answer with the name of a city. Avip is excluding cities from his "densely populated places" ranking. This doesn't make sense to me. If you say "world's most densely populated places" of course I'm going to think of cities, as anyone would.

idownvoted 5y ago

You're missing the intention of those pushing this claim: Painting Israel as running a prison intentionally bad, or vice-versa making Gaza the new Warsaw-Ghetto. If other commentators can't note the rediculousness of putting Gaza next to Tokio, Singapur or Hong Kong, I will: A place with virtually no economy outside of NGOs, the Hamas and UN-Orgs vs. economic beacons that draw talent from all over the world.

smolder 5y ago

It's maybe worth noting that objective metrics of population density are generally by land area and subjectively, density is about floor space or even volumetric. Building size could have a big impact on what is perceived as population dense.

dalbasal 5y ago

Articles citing articles citing articles... aka cliche. They're not really wrong. The definition of "place" is just arbitrary, so it's always "debatable.^" Bnei Brak, incidentally, is also often described as the densest place in the world. It's just in other contexts that don't interest an international readership. It was mentioned often, in covid related contexts. ^Meaning, pointlessly debateable.

markdown 5y ago

> Neither of these come close to ranking on wikipedias list of cities by population density > Is the BBC just plain wrong here or am I missing something? What you're missing is that you don't have to be anywhere near that list to be one of the most densely populated places in the world. Most of the world is empty.