5 ms·

Censorship, Surveillance and Profits: A Hard Bargain for Apple in China

56 points by jbegley 5y ago

mhoad 5y ago
It’s kind of strange to think about Apple is kind of known to “fight the US government at every step to protect privacy” and then reconcile all the public goodwill they have with this article. One of the core reasons people seem to love them so much seems to be based on what is basically a lie and maybe worse.
- ENOTTY 5y ago
  What would you have them do? Leave the Chinese market? Try to operate illegally? In both the Chinese and US markets, seems like Apple did everything they legally could.
  - mhoad 5y ago
    I’m simply pointing out that their reputation is significantly better than it should be. This is the same company that had to install suicide nets at their factories in the same country. They are also the same company who have engaged in some of the most aggressive tax avoidance ever seen. These things combined are painting an extremely dark picture of how the biggest company in the world maybe got to the size they are. It feels like a good time to start asking the question of how we should react to this?
  - cromwellian 5y ago
    Why not? Google correctly made that decision a decade ago. Is it really worth compromising yourself? Apple should not be beholden to an authoritarian regime by putting too many of their eggs in that basket.
    - ENOTTY 5y ago
      Google left China because it discovered it was the victim of a cyberattack from the Chinese government, not really out of any kind of hate of authoritarianism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora And they returned to the Chinese market several years later.
      - cromwellian 5y ago
        1) No, that is not the reason they left. Google can serve searches from anywhere, including putting servers in HK or Taiwan, or a datacenter in Japan. Leaving the Chinese market doesn't inhibit Chinese cyberattacks. In recent years, Google revealed the Chinese government had been targeting overseas Chinese civil rights activist accounts with spearfishing attacks. More likely, they did not want to be on the hook for constantly censoring search results. If you run any forum or search engine in China, you have to be on the hook for constantly responding to requests to either censor search/forums or turn over user data, and who wants to be involved in that? 2) "And they returned to the Chinese market several years later." No, they did not. You cannot reliably access gmail, youtube, search, et al, from Mainland China without a VPN, and even with a VPN it's iffy since VPNs constantly stop working. Maybe you're confusing the recent project Dragonfly that was being worked on. It never shipped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonfly_(search_engine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonfly_(search_engine) Google's decision to leave China was most likely heavily influenced by Brin, who having grown up under the Iron Curtain, despises totalitarianism and probably didn't want to deal with the CCP. Apple made a decision that they love money more than privacy or civil rights, and haven't seemed to invest any of their hundreds of billions in decoupling themselves from Chinese manufacturing and assembly, so as a result, they are now beholden to the whims of the CCP. A real Faustian bargain on their part that they may one day regret.
  - cronix 5y ago
    It depends on morals and principles. At what point is the money not worth it, which has nothing to do with legality.
ilamont 5y ago
The Chinese government was starting to pass laws that gave the country greater leverage over Apple, and Mr. Guthrie said he believed Mr. Xi would soon start seeking concessions. Apple, he realized, had no Plan B. The same story for nearly every multinational doing business in China.
yange 5y ago
I'm Chinese and I have a lot to say about articles like this. "We hate China. X loves / helps / do business with China. So we should hate X too. Unless X become one of us to hate China together." This is the common logic used in articles like this, where X is Apple in this case. I don't see other use of these articles than spreading and deteriorating Chinese hate. Yes, just one or two articles may not be a problem, but we have seen these like forever now. This is the psychological warfare the US government doing to its own citizen, and to all the world, spreading Chinese hate. This FUD movement has even turned in to business for US military, and political campaigns. As a Chinese, I really want it to stop. I don't want the younger generation around the world grow up hating Chinese people. I don't want everyone treat me like an enemy. But I'm so helpless. China, is so helpless. Even without the Xinjiang issue. Even if China has a fully westernized democratic system, the US would still make up something for you to hate us. It's what this country does everytime some other country threatens its global hegemony, no matter what ideology or political system they have. Yes, I know I sounds like a wumao now. I'm also surprised I would say something like a wumao someday. So let me make it clear, I don't want to defend the allegation to the Chinese goverment. If there's unjust crime being made to Uyghurs in Xinjiang, I want it to stop, I would condemn those who responsible and want them to be punished by law. I want the government to implement supervision protocol to prevent anything like that to happen again. But for programs that is helping the Uyghurs family to get employed, improve their working skill and living condition, without compromising their existing living standard, I would also praise the effort and want it to continue. If there's anything I can help to improve living conditions in areas like Xinjiang, either be donation or a chance to become a volunteer or a teacher, I would do it to help those people. I don't know why I haven't hear a single westerner to say something like this. Shouldn't real justice to be punishing the bad and supporting the good? China like any other goverment, is not all good or all evil. But isn't the right thing always to help the people? Why not donate education resource to poor area like Xinjiang? Why not participate and help on the ground when you can? Because going into China would compromise your passport? your mind? or your pride? It's the same logic people use to justify their "get out of China" actions. Because being inside China would force you to follow rules and laws you don't support, therefore it compromise your value, therefore you should get out of China. I found these statement so selfish and condescending, almost like an excuse for their hate. Whether you compromised your value is your own problem. Nobody concern your own being as good or evil, it's your contribution to others lives that matters when we judge. I like Apple. Most Chinese users like Apple. It makes people's life better, easier, and more enjoyable. That's absolutely a good thing that Apple did. With or without Apple, Chinese goverment already had access to all its people's data. Apple didn't made that worse with its participation. Even if Apple compromised their value by following the Chinese rules, the benefits its products provided is still a good thing to Chinese people's lives. You think it's bad not because Apple compromised its own value, but because Apple compromised YOUR value -- YOUR hatred toward China. Did you see the evil cycle here? The more you hate China, the more evil someone's action would look like when they do business in China, and that makes you hate China even more. And all that facilitating this cycle is the US media outlets influenced by their Chinese FUD campagin. I know I'm so helpless on this problem, but I want to wake up one or two people reading this as much as I can. Please stop the Chinese hate!

56 points by jbegley 5y ago

It’s kind of strange to think about Apple is kind of known to “fight the US government at every step to protect privacy” and then reconcile all the public goodwill they have with this article. One of the core reasons people seem to love them so much seems to be based on what is basically a lie and maybe worse.

ENOTTY 5y ago
What would you have them do? Leave the Chinese market? Try to operate illegally? In both the Chinese and US markets, seems like Apple did everything they legally could.
- mhoad 5y ago
  I’m simply pointing out that their reputation is significantly better than it should be. This is the same company that had to install suicide nets at their factories in the same country. They are also the same company who have engaged in some of the most aggressive tax avoidance ever seen. These things combined are painting an extremely dark picture of how the biggest company in the world maybe got to the size they are. It feels like a good time to start asking the question of how we should react to this?
- cromwellian 5y ago
  Why not? Google correctly made that decision a decade ago. Is it really worth compromising yourself? Apple should not be beholden to an authoritarian regime by putting too many of their eggs in that basket.
  - ENOTTY 5y ago
    Google left China because it discovered it was the victim of a cyberattack from the Chinese government, not really out of any kind of hate of authoritarianism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora And they returned to the Chinese market several years later.
    - cromwellian 5y ago
      1) No, that is not the reason they left. Google can serve searches from anywhere, including putting servers in HK or Taiwan, or a datacenter in Japan. Leaving the Chinese market doesn't inhibit Chinese cyberattacks. In recent years, Google revealed the Chinese government had been targeting overseas Chinese civil rights activist accounts with spearfishing attacks. More likely, they did not want to be on the hook for constantly censoring search results. If you run any forum or search engine in China, you have to be on the hook for constantly responding to requests to either censor search/forums or turn over user data, and who wants to be involved in that? 2) "And they returned to the Chinese market several years later." No, they did not. You cannot reliably access gmail, youtube, search, et al, from Mainland China without a VPN, and even with a VPN it's iffy since VPNs constantly stop working. Maybe you're confusing the recent project Dragonfly that was being worked on. It never shipped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonfly_(search_engine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonfly_(search_engine) Google's decision to leave China was most likely heavily influenced by Brin, who having grown up under the Iron Curtain, despises totalitarianism and probably didn't want to deal with the CCP. Apple made a decision that they love money more than privacy or civil rights, and haven't seemed to invest any of their hundreds of billions in decoupling themselves from Chinese manufacturing and assembly, so as a result, they are now beholden to the whims of the CCP. A real Faustian bargain on their part that they may one day regret.
- cronix 5y ago
  It depends on morals and principles. At what point is the money not worth it, which has nothing to do with legality.

ilamont 5y ago

The Chinese government was starting to pass laws that gave the country greater leverage over Apple, and Mr. Guthrie said he believed Mr. Xi would soon start seeking concessions. Apple, he realized, had no Plan B. The same story for nearly every multinational doing business in China.

yange 5y ago

I'm Chinese and I have a lot to say about articles like this. "We hate China. X loves / helps / do business with China. So we should hate X too. Unless X become one of us to hate China together." This is the common logic used in articles like this, where X is Apple in this case. I don't see other use of these articles than spreading and deteriorating Chinese hate. Yes, just one or two articles may not be a problem, but we have seen these like forever now. This is the psychological warfare the US government doing to its own citizen, and to all the world, spreading Chinese hate. This FUD movement has even turned in to business for US military, and political campaigns. As a Chinese, I really want it to stop. I don't want the younger generation around the world grow up hating Chinese people. I don't want everyone treat me like an enemy. But I'm so helpless. China, is so helpless. Even without the Xinjiang issue. Even if China has a fully westernized democratic system, the US would still make up something for you to hate us. It's what this country does everytime some other country threatens its global hegemony, no matter what ideology or political system they have. Yes, I know I sounds like a wumao now. I'm also surprised I would say something like a wumao someday. So let me make it clear, I don't want to defend the allegation to the Chinese goverment. If there's unjust crime being made to Uyghurs in Xinjiang, I want it to stop, I would condemn those who responsible and want them to be punished by law. I want the government to implement supervision protocol to prevent anything like that to happen again. But for programs that is helping the Uyghurs family to get employed, improve their working skill and living condition, without compromising their existing living standard, I would also praise the effort and want it to continue. If there's anything I can help to improve living conditions in areas like Xinjiang, either be donation or a chance to become a volunteer or a teacher, I would do it to help those people. I don't know why I haven't hear a single westerner to say something like this. Shouldn't real justice to be punishing the bad and supporting the good? China like any other goverment, is not all good or all evil. But isn't the right thing always to help the people? Why not donate education resource to poor area like Xinjiang? Why not participate and help on the ground when you can? Because going into China would compromise your passport? your mind? or your pride? It's the same logic people use to justify their "get out of China" actions. Because being inside China would force you to follow rules and laws you don't support, therefore it compromise your value, therefore you should get out of China. I found these statement so selfish and condescending, almost like an excuse for their hate. Whether you compromised your value is your own problem. Nobody concern your own being as good or evil, it's your contribution to others lives that matters when we judge. I like Apple. Most Chinese users like Apple. It makes people's life better, easier, and more enjoyable. That's absolutely a good thing that Apple did. With or without Apple, Chinese goverment already had access to all its people's data. Apple didn't made that worse with its participation. Even if Apple compromised their value by following the Chinese rules, the benefits its products provided is still a good thing to Chinese people's lives. You think it's bad not because Apple compromised its own value, but because Apple compromised YOUR value -- YOUR hatred toward China. Did you see the evil cycle here? The more you hate China, the more evil someone's action would look like when they do business in China, and that makes you hate China even more. And all that facilitating this cycle is the US media outlets influenced by their Chinese FUD campagin. I know I'm so helpless on this problem, but I want to wake up one or two people reading this as much as I can. Please stop the Chinese hate!