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Ah, this is reminiscent of best-worst translation of the Tao Te Ching from Suzuki & Carus. The valley spirit not expires, Mysterious woman ’tis called

Ah, this is reminiscent of best-worst translation of the Tao Te Ching from Suzuki & Carus. The valley spirit not expires, Mysterious woman ’tis called by the sires. The mysterious woman's door, to boot, Is called of heaven and earth the root. Forever and aye it seems to endure And its use is without effort sure

dang 5y ago
Ouch. There's a conflict between the scholarly impulse and the poetic one. T.S. Eliot famously observed that great poets were shameless about stealing. Probably they're equally shameless about omitting things. I read the OP a year ago, as well as a Twitter thread that was sharply criticizing Barks for what the critic felt was dishonest distortion in the famous "Out beyond ideas of rightdoing and wrongdoing, there is a field. / I will meet you there." The next morning, by coincidence, I was listening to an online talk by a Sufi teacher (not a newfangled sort - from one of the ancient orders predating Rumi). To illustrate the theme of his talk, what did he quote? "Out beyond ideas of rightdoing and wrongdoing, there is a field. / I will meet you there." I figure if the Sufi masters themselves are quoting Barks, that's got to count for something.
- shanhaiguan 5y ago
  Perhaps, but I would be cautious in saying that even present-day Sufis from traditional orders are especially representative of a normative ideal of 'Sufism', especially those who have exposure by social media and the internet to huge audiences and to the West. This is partially what I think is common sense and partially from some personal experience. My working conjecture is that if such people like Rumi and other ancient Sufis like Hallaj, Junayd, Ibn Arabi, &c. genuinely exist today, they won't be easily found without intense search. There is probably no doubt that the line from Barks' translation has much to offer readers who ponder it. If it provides benefit, people should keep using it. But they should be more clear in attribution - I would be happy if the quote was always presented alongside Coleman Barks' name, the same way Ezra Pound's translations of Li Bai are attributed more to Ezra Pound than to Li Bai.
  - dang 5y ago
    I take your point and am interested in your perspective!

dang 5y ago

Ouch. There's a conflict between the scholarly impulse and the poetic one. T.S. Eliot famously observed that great poets were shameless about stealing. Probably they're equally shameless about omitting things. I read the OP a year ago, as well as a Twitter thread that was sharply criticizing Barks for what the critic felt was dishonest distortion in the famous "Out beyond ideas of rightdoing and wrongdoing, there is a field. / I will meet you there." The next morning, by coincidence, I was listening to an online talk by a Sufi teacher (not a newfangled sort - from one of the ancient orders predating Rumi). To illustrate the theme of his talk, what did he quote? "Out beyond ideas of rightdoing and wrongdoing, there is a field. / I will meet you there." I figure if the Sufi masters themselves are quoting Barks, that's got to count for something.

shanhaiguan 5y ago
Perhaps, but I would be cautious in saying that even present-day Sufis from traditional orders are especially representative of a normative ideal of 'Sufism', especially those who have exposure by social media and the internet to huge audiences and to the West. This is partially what I think is common sense and partially from some personal experience. My working conjecture is that if such people like Rumi and other ancient Sufis like Hallaj, Junayd, Ibn Arabi, &c. genuinely exist today, they won't be easily found without intense search. There is probably no doubt that the line from Barks' translation has much to offer readers who ponder it. If it provides benefit, people should keep using it. But they should be more clear in attribution - I would be happy if the quote was always presented alongside Coleman Barks' name, the same way Ezra Pound's translations of Li Bai are attributed more to Ezra Pound than to Li Bai.
- dang 5y ago
  I take your point and am interested in your perspective!