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Should they have negotiated with the Palestinian Authority, which only partially controls the West Bank, or with Hamas, which took control of Gaza and proceeded

Should they have negotiated with the Palestinian Authority, which only partially controls the West Bank, or with Hamas, which took control of Gaza and proceeded to murder leaders from other Palestinian political parties? It is kind of hard to know who the "official" representatives of the Palestinian people actually are due to the failure to establish a functional Palestinian state or government.

elmomle 5y ago
I wish the recent history of Palestine were different too, but it seems unkind to use language that implicitly blames Palestinians as a people--or the factions that now hold power--for these issues. Literally any people on Earth would probably have a similar history, and be in a similar (or worse) place with respect to government, if they faced similar pressures for such an extended period of time.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  How did I blame the Palestinian people? The fact is that they do not have a functioning government, and the government they have is not in a position to negotiate on their behalf when it comes to Gaza. The faction that controls Gaza is not even recognized as legitimate by the PA (which is supposed to represent the Palestinian people).
  - lacksconfidence 5y ago
    You appear, and i could of course be mistaken, to be blaming the palestinian people for "the failure to establish a functional Palestinian state or government". As if it the fault of a population that's mostly under 30 years old that they haven't been able to establish a government under the existing conditions. I'm not sure anyone else could.
    - betterunix2 5y ago
      That was a statement of fact, I was not blaming anyone in particular. As I have said elsewhere, if anyone is to blame it would be Hamas, whose political campaign in 2006 was based on delegitimizing the peace process and two-state solution and which pressed a war with Fatah that greatly weakened the PA. It is not as if the Palestinians were told to build a functioning state on their own; they receive a lot of help from other countries, including from Israel itself (e.g. joint police operations, joint security patrols, etc. -- all of which are confidence-building and institution-building measures).
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  Do you have any examples for that?
Udik 5y ago
> Hamas, which took control of Gaza and proceeded to murder leaders from other Palestinian political parties You appear to be misinformed. Hamas won regular elections (considered such by international observers, who also reported obstructions from Israel). Hamas then kept respecting the ongoing ceasefire with Israel and started softening its stance towards it, offering a permanent ceasefire, while on the other side Israel campaigned to put the Gaza strip under the strictest embargo. On June 8th, two days before the end of the ceasefire, Israel killed an Hamas official in an air strike. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Gaza_cross-border_raid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Gaza_cross-border_raid
- tayo33 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Hamas_political_violence_in_Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Hamas_political_violence_...
- sigzero 5y ago
  Hamas didn't keep the ceasefire. Hamas was behind the Qassam attack in early 2006. That's from one of your links by the way. https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3257913,00.html https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3257913,00.html
rowanseymour 5y ago
> the failure to establish a functional Palestinian state or government. Wonder whose fault you think it is that the Palestinians who currently live under what HRW and several Israeli human rights organizations consider apartheid, don't have a state.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  I think it is the fault of Hamas, which derailed the peace process 15 years ago after running a political campaign that delegitimized the peace process itself (they claimed that it was actually terrorism, not diplomacy and negotiated deals, that had caused the Israelis to withdraw from Gaza). As I said, their first move after taking control of Gaza was to murder political opponents. They fought a civil war against Fatah that almost caused a total collapse of the PA, and ever since the PA has been barely functional.
  - mtrovo 5y ago
    Sure, because life on Gaza strip on 2006 was all moonlight and roses. Hell even going back 30 years ago you wouldn't find much difference [0]. I wonder what political force or nation could be benefiting from this constant chaos. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(comics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(comics)
    - golemiprague 5y ago
      The peace process was in 1996, not 2006. Hamas doesn't accept the partition decision of 1948, even fatach don't really accept it because they ask for "right of return", meaning all Arabs who used to be in Israel area in 1948 and their descendant should have a right to go back to Israel, effectively destroying Israe as a Jewish country. So sometimes this political stance manifest itself in a type of violence, like the suicide bombs during the Oslo agreement times in the 90', which caused it to derail and become more of a war than a peace process. But even if they were the most peaceful people in the world, their stance doesn't change, that Israel should be another Arab country. So the only option for Jews is either to live Israel or live under some Arab dictatorship, like any other middle eastern Arab country.

elmomle 5y ago

I wish the recent history of Palestine were different too, but it seems unkind to use language that implicitly blames Palestinians as a people--or the factions that now hold power--for these issues. Literally any people on Earth would probably have a similar history, and be in a similar (or worse) place with respect to government, if they faced similar pressures for such an extended period of time.

betterunix2 5y ago
How did I blame the Palestinian people? The fact is that they do not have a functioning government, and the government they have is not in a position to negotiate on their behalf when it comes to Gaza. The faction that controls Gaza is not even recognized as legitimate by the PA (which is supposed to represent the Palestinian people).
- lacksconfidence 5y ago
  You appear, and i could of course be mistaken, to be blaming the palestinian people for "the failure to establish a functional Palestinian state or government". As if it the fault of a population that's mostly under 30 years old that they haven't been able to establish a government under the existing conditions. I'm not sure anyone else could.
  - betterunix2 5y ago
    That was a statement of fact, I was not blaming anyone in particular. As I have said elsewhere, if anyone is to blame it would be Hamas, whose political campaign in 2006 was based on delegitimizing the peace process and two-state solution and which pressed a war with Fatah that greatly weakened the PA. It is not as if the Palestinians were told to build a functioning state on their own; they receive a lot of help from other countries, including from Israel itself (e.g. joint police operations, joint security patrols, etc. -- all of which are confidence-building and institution-building measures).
joelbluminator 5y ago
Do you have any examples for that?

Udik 5y ago

> Hamas, which took control of Gaza and proceeded to murder leaders from other Palestinian political parties You appear to be misinformed. Hamas won regular elections (considered such by international observers, who also reported obstructions from Israel). Hamas then kept respecting the ongoing ceasefire with Israel and started softening its stance towards it, offering a permanent ceasefire, while on the other side Israel campaigned to put the Gaza strip under the strictest embargo. On June 8th, two days before the end of the ceasefire, Israel killed an Hamas official in an air strike. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Gaza_cross-border_raid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Gaza_cross-border_raid

tayo33 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Hamas_political_violence_in_Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Hamas_political_violence_...
sigzero 5y ago
Hamas didn't keep the ceasefire. Hamas was behind the Qassam attack in early 2006. That's from one of your links by the way. https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3257913,00.html https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3257913,00.html

rowanseymour 5y ago

> the failure to establish a functional Palestinian state or government. Wonder whose fault you think it is that the Palestinians who currently live under what HRW and several Israeli human rights organizations consider apartheid, don't have a state.

betterunix2 5y ago
I think it is the fault of Hamas, which derailed the peace process 15 years ago after running a political campaign that delegitimized the peace process itself (they claimed that it was actually terrorism, not diplomacy and negotiated deals, that had caused the Israelis to withdraw from Gaza). As I said, their first move after taking control of Gaza was to murder political opponents. They fought a civil war against Fatah that almost caused a total collapse of the PA, and ever since the PA has been barely functional.
- mtrovo 5y ago
  Sure, because life on Gaza strip on 2006 was all moonlight and roses. Hell even going back 30 years ago you wouldn't find much difference [0]. I wonder what political force or nation could be benefiting from this constant chaos. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(comics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(comics)
  - golemiprague 5y ago
    The peace process was in 1996, not 2006. Hamas doesn't accept the partition decision of 1948, even fatach don't really accept it because they ask for "right of return", meaning all Arabs who used to be in Israel area in 1948 and their descendant should have a right to go back to Israel, effectively destroying Israe as a Jewish country. So sometimes this political stance manifest itself in a type of violence, like the suicide bombs during the Oslo agreement times in the 90', which caused it to derail and become more of a war than a peace process. But even if they were the most peaceful people in the world, their stance doesn't change, that Israel should be another Arab country. So the only option for Jews is either to live Israel or live under some Arab dictatorship, like any other middle eastern Arab country.