7 ms·

This is included/no additional cost which is fantastic. I do wonder if in the longer term if Apple's Spatial Audio with "dynamic head tracking" isn't the next

This is included/no additional cost which is fantastic. I do wonder if in the longer term if Apple's Spatial Audio with "dynamic head tracking" isn't the next 3D TVs/3D Content i.e. a gimmick. Taking traditional multi-source audio (Dolby/Atmos/etc) and jamming it into stereo is old tech, it doesn't work particularly well but is cheap to make/consume, thus mostly harmless. The new Spatial Audio is using gyroscopes to measure head movements in order to adjust the audio accordingly, and new audio formats to make it work. This may sound interesting if you haven't tried it, but it results in: Either you keep your head stationary and get the non-Spatial Audio sound (i.e. what they optimized for 90%+ of their audience) or whipping your head around to "enjoy" the effect (which is largely a movement accurate degradation). It feels like cart-before-the-horse tech wherein they figured out they can do this thing, and now want to work backwards into what it may be useful for.

dagmx 5y ago
It's really difficult (almost impossible) to keep your head perfectly still.
- Someone1234 5y ago
  Indeed, so you're getting degradation/distortion of the audio source most of the time. That's why most people try it a couple of times then turn it off.
  - dagmx 5y ago
    I'm not sure agreeing with my point backs up what you're saying. I'm saying we turn our heads regularly, so the Spatial audio works well most of the time.
    - Someone1234 5y ago
      I am agreeing that you cannot keep your head completely still, and then pointing out that that fact means Spatial Audio is constantly causing audio adjustments with seemingly no basis which degrades the listening experience. The argument that Spatial Audio makes more tiny adjustments is an argument against Spatial Audio, not an argument for it.
      - dagmx 5y ago
        Why do you think it degrades the listening experience? The mixes are already made for surround sound. It's not arbitrary, so not "no basis" like you say. It's taking a surround mix and anchoring the audio sources.
  - boardwaalk 5y ago
    I can’t speak for anyone else, but I turned it off not because of any degradation/distortion, but because the tracking wasn’t that great (on multiple fairly recent devices) and one ‘hiccup’ where you move your head but the audio sticks in place is a bigger minus than any plus from the spatial audio itself.
JKCalhoun 5y ago
> I do wonder … if Apple's Spatial Audio with "dynamic head tracking" isn't the next 3D TVs/3D Content… But first, back in 1972, there was Quadrophonic. Twice as good as stereo! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadraphonic_sound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadraphonic_sound
sbarre 5y ago
> I do wonder if in the longer term if Apple's Spatial Audio with "dynamic head tracking" isn't the next 3D TVs/3D Content i.e. a gimmick. For what it's worth, I have a pair of Audeze headphones that has 3D head tracking or whatever they call it, and I don't think it's a gimmick. When I'm wearing those and watching a movie on my TV (or playing a game on my PC), the sound really does appear to be coming from in front of me (or beside/behind me depending on the channel or the mix), and if I turn my head, the sound stays put. It's somewhat subtle, but it can make me forget that I'm wearing headphones and I personally find it really adds to the experience.
- klmadfejno 5y ago
  Why is that useful though? "It's like I'm really listening to a TV!". Isn't that what people try to avoid with expensive sound systems that offer surround sound?
  - kjakm 5y ago
    With the AirPods + Apple TV content spatial audio makes it sound like the audio is coming through more than just the two channels. It's much more natural sounding that stereo in headphones.
  - sbarre 5y ago
    I find positional audio is more immersive. I never claimed this was useful, I said I found it enjoyable and having had this headset for 3+ years now, I can say that - speaking for myself - this is not a "gimmick" that I've grown tired of or turned off.
solarmist 5y ago
The cart before the horse doesn’t sound very Apple like. They’re the kind to keep it private and mess with it until they find a use for it and get it working very well. Instead they’d just find a way to make the battery bigger because they know people care a ton about that. Also, everyone keeps talking about consciously moving your head around. Record yourself doing something on your computer for 5 minutes and watch how much your head already, unconsciously moves around. It’s a lot. Yes it’s subtle, but it’s supposed to be. You’re meant to forget about it. It’s trying to more accurately reproduce our natural abilities.
- Someone1234 5y ago
  > The cart before the horse doesn’t sound very Apple like. They’re the kind to keep it private and mess with it until they find a use for it and get it working very well. Force Touch.
  - HatchedLake721 5y ago
    It's working very well on iPhones and Apple Watches and has great use cases. It was axed on newer iPhones because of discoverability issues and little amount of people being even aware it exists and how to use it. I still miss force touch on keyboard to move cursor around (instead of pressing spacebar, holding it and waiting)
dinglefairy 5y ago
i suppose there's something to this 'head turning' experience, but what immediately came to my paranoid mind was all that sweet juicy private data that they will likely have access to. knowing what you look at/are doing while you listen to music. your entire bodies movement is related to the way your head moves. the only people i picture that do nothing while listening to music, just sitting there actively listening, are hifi guys in their hifi chairs. why spend resources on this though? how do you set the 'reference' point? the source of where the music is supposed to come from? if you're at a concert and turn your head left and right, there's not much change in where the source sounds like it's coming from. even if you turn around, the sound at a concert is so consuming that even turning barely makes a directional difference. the next best thing after a wall of sound is four walls of sound. when you think about it, we have basically perfected many things. i see a lot of pervasive technology going more towards using customers as products rather than providing more value to them. in other words, the added feature/value becomes the way to harvest more granular data.
Mandelmus 5y ago
This Apple Music “spatial audio” just means Dolby Atmos. It is not the same gyroscope-based spatial audio that they use on Apple TV.
- Jcowell 5y ago
  Apple TV doesn’t have Spacial Audio. Only iPads and iPhones.
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    Apple TV the streaming service. Not Apple TV the hardware or Apple TV the app or any other Apple TV that apple makes.
    - Jcowell 5y ago
      The streaming service is Apple TV+ while the App is TV and the device is called Apple TV.
      - tshaddox 5y ago
        https://dcurt.is/apple-tv-all-the-way-down https://dcurt.is/apple-tv-all-the-way-down
- squeaky-clean 5y ago
  In theory they could apply the gyroscope based movement to Dolby Atmos based music as well. But who wants to turn 90 degrees left and have the songs soundstage not also shift with them?
crazygringo 5y ago
> Either you keep your head stationary and get the non-Spatial Audio sound (i.e. what they optimized for 90%+ of their audience) I literally have no idea what you're talking about. Using Spatial Audio on my AirPods Pro is insanely better, and still very much spatial, even without actively moving my head. First, the sound appears to be coming from outside of my head, rather than between my ears -- no "headphone fatigue". It's vastly more comfortable and realistic. Second, while dialog comes from straight ahead, sound effects like doors opening, cars honking etc. clearly come from angles, and things like wind come from all around, like an actual surround sound experience. Third, because the dialog tracks are separated from other sounds spatially, the dialog is easier to understand as well. I used to sometimes put on subtitles for certain material to understand fully in normal stereo -- I never have to anymore with spatial audio. > Taking traditional multi-source audio (Dolby/Atmos/etc) and jamming it into stereo is old tech I've used all that old tech too, and for whatever reason Apple's spatial audio is leagues better. I'm not sure if it's something about being optimized for known headphone characteristics, or the head tracking, or something clever with the inward-facing microphones, or all of the above, but it's nothing like that old tech. > now want to work backwards into what it may be useful for. It's useful for listening, end of story. I'm honestly mystified why you think it's a gimmick. I can't even imagine going back to listening to movies and TV without it. (I project from my iPad onto a screen, connect my AirPods Pro, and it's basically like being in an actual cinema, but without waking anyone else up at night from booming surround sound.)
- layer8 5y ago
  > the sound appears to be coming from outside of my head, rather than between my ears It’s a pity that Apple doesn’t provide that feature as a simple option that one can apply to any audio source.
  - armincerf 5y ago
    It gets activated on any audio source in a surround sound format, it can’t be applied to stereo sources because stereo audio doesn’t contain any positional info
krrishd 5y ago
The fascinating thing about this spatial audio wave to me is that it was basically available almost a decade ago (because "binaural audio" has been available and fairly trivially usable for a while now). I remember one of the first apps I downloaded on my iPod Touch in middle school (~2011) was a "binaural audio" app that catalogued spatial audio experiences (+ voice-acted stuff like getting a haircut, etc).
- Pulcinella 5y ago
  I think the key thing has been enough processing for dynamic/real time spatial audio via HRTF. Despite being “just” audio, applying a HRTF can be pretty processing intensive, especially for a mobile device. Those binaural audio experiences were all pre-computed.
- squeaky-clean 5y ago
  Binaural audio recordings are usually made with a Binaural microphone that records sound in a similar configuration to how human ears work. Or they're just synthesized directly as a stereo signal (that's usually how those "binaural beats" music is made). They're nothing more than a stereo file, and the audio has just been recorded in a certain way that mimics the human ear and head. This is why the virtual surround sound from binaural recordings sounds so convincing, but only when wearing headphones. Spatial audio is a more generalized term. Let's say you're filming an action movie and have a scene where a robot comes from foreground-right, kicks a car, and the car flies over the camera and makes a loud crashing sound behind the camera. You can't just stick a binaural microphone on set and record that because it's almost all CGI. There is no actual sound of a robot kicking a car to be recorded. Instead your foley artists and sound design team will record and modify dozens (even hundreds) of sound sources and combine them together in software that supports a sort of virtual 3d environment, and save it in a format capable of representing this (like Dolby Atmos). You can then take that Dolby Atmos data and in realtime compute how to map your virtual sound-sources onto things like a 64-speaker Dolby Atmos array in an movie theater, or a 12-speaker home theater Dolby Atmos setup, or apply an HRTF to convincingly map that audio to 2 headphones. A Binaural audio signal is restricted to stereo and intended to be placed directly in the ears.

dagmx 5y ago

It's really difficult (almost impossible) to keep your head perfectly still.

Someone1234 5y ago
Indeed, so you're getting degradation/distortion of the audio source most of the time. That's why most people try it a couple of times then turn it off.
- dagmx 5y ago
  I'm not sure agreeing with my point backs up what you're saying. I'm saying we turn our heads regularly, so the Spatial audio works well most of the time.
  - Someone1234 5y ago
    I am agreeing that you cannot keep your head completely still, and then pointing out that that fact means Spatial Audio is constantly causing audio adjustments with seemingly no basis which degrades the listening experience. The argument that Spatial Audio makes more tiny adjustments is an argument against Spatial Audio, not an argument for it.
    - dagmx 5y ago
      Why do you think it degrades the listening experience? The mixes are already made for surround sound. It's not arbitrary, so not "no basis" like you say. It's taking a surround mix and anchoring the audio sources.
- boardwaalk 5y ago
  I can’t speak for anyone else, but I turned it off not because of any degradation/distortion, but because the tracking wasn’t that great (on multiple fairly recent devices) and one ‘hiccup’ where you move your head but the audio sticks in place is a bigger minus than any plus from the spatial audio itself.

JKCalhoun 5y ago

> I do wonder … if Apple's Spatial Audio with "dynamic head tracking" isn't the next 3D TVs/3D Content… But first, back in 1972, there was Quadrophonic. Twice as good as stereo! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadraphonic_sound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadraphonic_sound

sbarre 5y ago

> I do wonder if in the longer term if Apple's Spatial Audio with "dynamic head tracking" isn't the next 3D TVs/3D Content i.e. a gimmick. For what it's worth, I have a pair of Audeze headphones that has 3D head tracking or whatever they call it, and I don't think it's a gimmick. When I'm wearing those and watching a movie on my TV (or playing a game on my PC), the sound really does appear to be coming from in front of me (or beside/behind me depending on the channel or the mix), and if I turn my head, the sound stays put. It's somewhat subtle, but it can make me forget that I'm wearing headphones and I personally find it really adds to the experience.

klmadfejno 5y ago
Why is that useful though? "It's like I'm really listening to a TV!". Isn't that what people try to avoid with expensive sound systems that offer surround sound?
- kjakm 5y ago
  With the AirPods + Apple TV content spatial audio makes it sound like the audio is coming through more than just the two channels. It's much more natural sounding that stereo in headphones.
- sbarre 5y ago
  I find positional audio is more immersive. I never claimed this was useful, I said I found it enjoyable and having had this headset for 3+ years now, I can say that - speaking for myself - this is not a "gimmick" that I've grown tired of or turned off.

solarmist 5y ago

The cart before the horse doesn’t sound very Apple like. They’re the kind to keep it private and mess with it until they find a use for it and get it working very well. Instead they’d just find a way to make the battery bigger because they know people care a ton about that. Also, everyone keeps talking about consciously moving your head around. Record yourself doing something on your computer for 5 minutes and watch how much your head already, unconsciously moves around. It’s a lot. Yes it’s subtle, but it’s supposed to be. You’re meant to forget about it. It’s trying to more accurately reproduce our natural abilities.

Someone1234 5y ago
> The cart before the horse doesn’t sound very Apple like. They’re the kind to keep it private and mess with it until they find a use for it and get it working very well. Force Touch.
- HatchedLake721 5y ago
  It's working very well on iPhones and Apple Watches and has great use cases. It was axed on newer iPhones because of discoverability issues and little amount of people being even aware it exists and how to use it. I still miss force touch on keyboard to move cursor around (instead of pressing spacebar, holding it and waiting)

dinglefairy 5y ago

i suppose there's something to this 'head turning' experience, but what immediately came to my paranoid mind was all that sweet juicy private data that they will likely have access to. knowing what you look at/are doing while you listen to music. your entire bodies movement is related to the way your head moves. the only people i picture that do nothing while listening to music, just sitting there actively listening, are hifi guys in their hifi chairs. why spend resources on this though? how do you set the 'reference' point? the source of where the music is supposed to come from? if you're at a concert and turn your head left and right, there's not much change in where the source sounds like it's coming from. even if you turn around, the sound at a concert is so consuming that even turning barely makes a directional difference. the next best thing after a wall of sound is four walls of sound. when you think about it, we have basically perfected many things. i see a lot of pervasive technology going more towards using customers as products rather than providing more value to them. in other words, the added feature/value becomes the way to harvest more granular data.

Mandelmus 5y ago

This Apple Music “spatial audio” just means Dolby Atmos. It is not the same gyroscope-based spatial audio that they use on Apple TV.

Jcowell 5y ago
Apple TV doesn’t have Spacial Audio. Only iPads and iPhones.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  Apple TV the streaming service. Not Apple TV the hardware or Apple TV the app or any other Apple TV that apple makes.
  - Jcowell 5y ago
    The streaming service is Apple TV+ while the App is TV and the device is called Apple TV.
    - tshaddox 5y ago
      https://dcurt.is/apple-tv-all-the-way-down https://dcurt.is/apple-tv-all-the-way-down
squeaky-clean 5y ago
In theory they could apply the gyroscope based movement to Dolby Atmos based music as well. But who wants to turn 90 degrees left and have the songs soundstage not also shift with them?

crazygringo 5y ago

> Either you keep your head stationary and get the non-Spatial Audio sound (i.e. what they optimized for 90%+ of their audience) I literally have no idea what you're talking about. Using Spatial Audio on my AirPods Pro is insanely better, and still very much spatial, even without actively moving my head. First, the sound appears to be coming from outside of my head, rather than between my ears -- no "headphone fatigue". It's vastly more comfortable and realistic. Second, while dialog comes from straight ahead, sound effects like doors opening, cars honking etc. clearly come from angles, and things like wind come from all around, like an actual surround sound experience. Third, because the dialog tracks are separated from other sounds spatially, the dialog is easier to understand as well. I used to sometimes put on subtitles for certain material to understand fully in normal stereo -- I never have to anymore with spatial audio. > Taking traditional multi-source audio (Dolby/Atmos/etc) and jamming it into stereo is old tech I've used all that old tech too, and for whatever reason Apple's spatial audio is leagues better. I'm not sure if it's something about being optimized for known headphone characteristics, or the head tracking, or something clever with the inward-facing microphones, or all of the above, but it's nothing like that old tech. > now want to work backwards into what it may be useful for. It's useful for listening, end of story. I'm honestly mystified why you think it's a gimmick. I can't even imagine going back to listening to movies and TV without it. (I project from my iPad onto a screen, connect my AirPods Pro, and it's basically like being in an actual cinema, but without waking anyone else up at night from booming surround sound.)

layer8 5y ago
> the sound appears to be coming from outside of my head, rather than between my ears It’s a pity that Apple doesn’t provide that feature as a simple option that one can apply to any audio source.
- armincerf 5y ago
  It gets activated on any audio source in a surround sound format, it can’t be applied to stereo sources because stereo audio doesn’t contain any positional info

krrishd 5y ago

The fascinating thing about this spatial audio wave to me is that it was basically available almost a decade ago (because "binaural audio" has been available and fairly trivially usable for a while now). I remember one of the first apps I downloaded on my iPod Touch in middle school (~2011) was a "binaural audio" app that catalogued spatial audio experiences (+ voice-acted stuff like getting a haircut, etc).

Pulcinella 5y ago
I think the key thing has been enough processing for dynamic/real time spatial audio via HRTF. Despite being “just” audio, applying a HRTF can be pretty processing intensive, especially for a mobile device. Those binaural audio experiences were all pre-computed.
squeaky-clean 5y ago
Binaural audio recordings are usually made with a Binaural microphone that records sound in a similar configuration to how human ears work. Or they're just synthesized directly as a stereo signal (that's usually how those "binaural beats" music is made). They're nothing more than a stereo file, and the audio has just been recorded in a certain way that mimics the human ear and head. This is why the virtual surround sound from binaural recordings sounds so convincing, but only when wearing headphones. Spatial audio is a more generalized term. Let's say you're filming an action movie and have a scene where a robot comes from foreground-right, kicks a car, and the car flies over the camera and makes a loud crashing sound behind the camera. You can't just stick a binaural microphone on set and record that because it's almost all CGI. There is no actual sound of a robot kicking a car to be recorded. Instead your foley artists and sound design team will record and modify dozens (even hundreds) of sound sources and combine them together in software that supports a sort of virtual 3d environment, and save it in a format capable of representing this (like Dolby Atmos). You can then take that Dolby Atmos data and in realtime compute how to map your virtual sound-sources onto things like a 64-speaker Dolby Atmos array in an movie theater, or a 12-speaker home theater Dolby Atmos setup, or apply an HRTF to convincingly map that audio to 2 headphones. A Binaural audio signal is restricted to stereo and intended to be placed directly in the ears.