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How do you quote? If design is iterative there is no way to spec out a project and give the client a quote, no quote no work. If I do quote then once we get 95%

How do you quote? If design is iterative there is no way to spec out a project and give the client a quote, no quote no work. If I do quote then once we get 95% into the project the client wants to go back on it all but considers it just amends rather than a requote. I would happily design the same website over and over again for the rest of my life if I didn't also have to justify the cost of doing that to the client.

brudgers 5y ago
The key is good clients. Good clients are aware of how the process works. The problem is it takes a long time to develop good clients and newer consultants tend to meet poor clients...ones that burned the previous consultant or ones that have no experience or ones that don’t value long term business relationships. Communication is important. The client can have anything they want. But from day one everything costs money. Nickel and diming is the business model of consulting. And it is no matter how fat the contract. If a client has an issue with paying for your work, fire them.
France_is_bacon 5y ago
brudgers is 100% correct. You have to happily design the same website over and over again for the rest of your life. The real issue is communication. Large companies will know what to do and how it works. But some companies who have never done a project just simply have no basis for understanding. This is where your expertise comes in. You have to be so clear and explain over and over the issues with them not testing up front. Explain and show how expensive it is to make a change 95% into the project. I'm sure there are zillions of examples all over the internet, and videos galore that can 1) explain it to them, and 2) show that it is NOT you, but that is just the way it is. Someone wrote that charging by the hour is superior than by project. That is one of those things that is like, "Yeah, except..." If you know how to do something extremely well and know exactly how much time it will take, you can quote a flat rate and make much, much more money than doing hourly, that's just a fact. Furthermore, in complex construction projects, they give a flat rate bid, and you tell me - how much more dangerous is doing a $2 billion construction project on an airport rather than a $20K or $30K or $100K software project? The way it is done is that the construction company gives a bid, but makes money on the change orders, which always happen. There's no way around it. You just have to have an excellent contract, of course. But, again, communication is the key. If YOU don't communicate correctly, and 100% totally forthcoming to the client that you are working for, than it really is your fault. YOU are the one with the expertise. Show videos. Give presentations. Specifically on how changing into the design process will significantly escalate the price. And if they don't take it seriously up front and do the testing up front, it is on them. And if they steadfastly refuse or won't commit the time to even hear what you have to say, let alone do the up front design work, then it's a strong signal to walk away. Either that or you find a way of doing smaller projects to teach them, if that is possible.
- dangerface 5y ago
  You are both correct, thanks for the advice as difficult as I am finding it communication is the key thats missing I am focusing too much on the development side of it like a typical developer but the client is just never going to see it that way. I need to focus more on my communication rather than just hoping they get it.
  - France_is_bacon 5y ago
    I've been on both sides of the coin. I have done development work for others, and have hired developers. I hate it when a developer does not communicate, it is the worst thing in the world, to me. I'd rather have a B- developer that can communicate, rather than an A+ developer that cannot communicate. If you can't put powerpoint and infographics together yourself in a clear and compelling manner, all you have to do is use fiverr.com and get it done for way better than you can do it yourself, for a really inexpensive amount. Like, five or ten bucks. There's a ton of examples out there that you can use on how changes are expensive, just paraphrase them - don't re-invent the wheel. https://www.google.com/search?q=how+expensive+is+it+to+make+changes+in+a+technical+project+at+different+stages https://www.google.com/search?q=how+expensive+is+it+to+make+... https://dzone.com/articles/real-cost-change-software https://dzone.com/articles/real-cost-change-software Basically, the article above says one of the most important aspects is communication, which they call feedback. Same thing, different word. "Scott Amber agrees that the cost curve can be flattened in Agile development, not because of Simple Design, but because of the feedback loops that are fundamental to iterative, incremental development. Agile methods optimize feedback within the team, developers working closely together with each other and with the customer and relying on continuous face-to-face communications." That's a lot of words they use for the idea that you just have to spend time with the client talking and testing and communicating. Technology, done right, is the single most productive thing a business can do to create value. If your client does not understand this fundamental concept, then they are not a good client if they can't find time to communicate with you. Marketing and innovation are the two keys to any business. They are the only revenue drivers in a company.

brudgers 5y ago

The key is good clients. Good clients are aware of how the process works. The problem is it takes a long time to develop good clients and newer consultants tend to meet poor clients...ones that burned the previous consultant or ones that have no experience or ones that don’t value long term business relationships. Communication is important. The client can have anything they want. But from day one everything costs money. Nickel and diming is the business model of consulting. And it is no matter how fat the contract. If a client has an issue with paying for your work, fire them.

France_is_bacon 5y ago

brudgers is 100% correct. You have to happily design the same website over and over again for the rest of your life. The real issue is communication. Large companies will know what to do and how it works. But some companies who have never done a project just simply have no basis for understanding. This is where your expertise comes in. You have to be so clear and explain over and over the issues with them not testing up front. Explain and show how expensive it is to make a change 95% into the project. I'm sure there are zillions of examples all over the internet, and videos galore that can 1) explain it to them, and 2) show that it is NOT you, but that is just the way it is. Someone wrote that charging by the hour is superior than by project. That is one of those things that is like, "Yeah, except..." If you know how to do something extremely well and know exactly how much time it will take, you can quote a flat rate and make much, much more money than doing hourly, that's just a fact. Furthermore, in complex construction projects, they give a flat rate bid, and you tell me - how much more dangerous is doing a $2 billion construction project on an airport rather than a $20K or $30K or $100K software project? The way it is done is that the construction company gives a bid, but makes money on the change orders, which always happen. There's no way around it. You just have to have an excellent contract, of course. But, again, communication is the key. If YOU don't communicate correctly, and 100% totally forthcoming to the client that you are working for, than it really is your fault. YOU are the one with the expertise. Show videos. Give presentations. Specifically on how changing into the design process will significantly escalate the price. And if they don't take it seriously up front and do the testing up front, it is on them. And if they steadfastly refuse or won't commit the time to even hear what you have to say, let alone do the up front design work, then it's a strong signal to walk away. Either that or you find a way of doing smaller projects to teach them, if that is possible.

dangerface 5y ago
You are both correct, thanks for the advice as difficult as I am finding it communication is the key thats missing I am focusing too much on the development side of it like a typical developer but the client is just never going to see it that way. I need to focus more on my communication rather than just hoping they get it.
- France_is_bacon 5y ago
  I've been on both sides of the coin. I have done development work for others, and have hired developers. I hate it when a developer does not communicate, it is the worst thing in the world, to me. I'd rather have a B- developer that can communicate, rather than an A+ developer that cannot communicate. If you can't put powerpoint and infographics together yourself in a clear and compelling manner, all you have to do is use fiverr.com and get it done for way better than you can do it yourself, for a really inexpensive amount. Like, five or ten bucks. There's a ton of examples out there that you can use on how changes are expensive, just paraphrase them - don't re-invent the wheel. https://www.google.com/search?q=how+expensive+is+it+to+make+changes+in+a+technical+project+at+different+stages https://www.google.com/search?q=how+expensive+is+it+to+make+... https://dzone.com/articles/real-cost-change-software https://dzone.com/articles/real-cost-change-software Basically, the article above says one of the most important aspects is communication, which they call feedback. Same thing, different word. "Scott Amber agrees that the cost curve can be flattened in Agile development, not because of Simple Design, but because of the feedback loops that are fundamental to iterative, incremental development. Agile methods optimize feedback within the team, developers working closely together with each other and with the customer and relying on continuous face-to-face communications." That's a lot of words they use for the idea that you just have to spend time with the client talking and testing and communicating. Technology, done right, is the single most productive thing a business can do to create value. If your client does not understand this fundamental concept, then they are not a good client if they can't find time to communicate with you. Marketing and innovation are the two keys to any business. They are the only revenue drivers in a company.