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It is not clear to me whether you are suggesting the issue is merely one of how to give and receive justified criticism. I see the greater issue as one of the u

It is not clear to me whether you are suggesting the issue is merely one of how to give and receive justified criticism. I see the greater issue as one of the use of marginal, overblown or simply unjustified criticism and innuendo to isolate people and undermine reputations. We all know it happens.

lbhdc 5y ago
I have worked in a few departments where this has happened. It seemed that it was a means used by a group of engineers to get rid of other engineers they didn't see as "one of them".
- agumonkey 5y ago
  Did this happen as a last resort after more noble attempt failed ? Or was it the first reflex of the group ? Also was the other person really unfriendly or detrimental to the group or was it somehow subjective/ego driven (threatened by a newcomer) ?
  - lbhdc 5y ago
    No, this wasn't some misunderstanding, or even a disagreement. It was control. Those that didn't play the game were ostracized. Where possible they were set up to fail, and were generally made miserable. Ego driven? Certainly. I don't think there was any fear of newcomers, but was more about loyalty. Many of these people had worked together previously, and would coordinate to enforce what they wanted. Eventually they moved in mass to another company, killing our eng department. They rinsed and repeated at the new company. I had an HR rep tell me they felt like there was little they could do, because of their culture of silence, and how profitable they were.
    - agumonkey 5y ago
      It's somehow staggering and grounding to know that these exist... I wish I could investigate these kinds of groups.
agumonkey 5y ago
I felt the situation of the researchers was actually something that is more general (not only in academics or reputation circles). A human thing. How do we know our critics are unjustified unless we can feel free to word them out ? To me the issue was the bad reflex for people to speak in the back to put it simply. And not to blame Jessica, there's also the natural reflex to feel stuck in shock when facing people who clearly are not speaking their minds. In that case I'm sure a little habit of "what." to those people can quickly stop the toxic game. That's why I thought it requires most people to be a bit tougher and yet softer and have a natural or trained desire to confront things. It's a strange game of having empathy about our weaknesses and yet not letting them spoil the place.

lbhdc 5y ago

I have worked in a few departments where this has happened. It seemed that it was a means used by a group of engineers to get rid of other engineers they didn't see as "one of them".

agumonkey 5y ago
Did this happen as a last resort after more noble attempt failed ? Or was it the first reflex of the group ? Also was the other person really unfriendly or detrimental to the group or was it somehow subjective/ego driven (threatened by a newcomer) ?
- lbhdc 5y ago
  No, this wasn't some misunderstanding, or even a disagreement. It was control. Those that didn't play the game were ostracized. Where possible they were set up to fail, and were generally made miserable. Ego driven? Certainly. I don't think there was any fear of newcomers, but was more about loyalty. Many of these people had worked together previously, and would coordinate to enforce what they wanted. Eventually they moved in mass to another company, killing our eng department. They rinsed and repeated at the new company. I had an HR rep tell me they felt like there was little they could do, because of their culture of silence, and how profitable they were.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    It's somehow staggering and grounding to know that these exist... I wish I could investigate these kinds of groups.

agumonkey 5y ago

I felt the situation of the researchers was actually something that is more general (not only in academics or reputation circles). A human thing. How do we know our critics are unjustified unless we can feel free to word them out ? To me the issue was the bad reflex for people to speak in the back to put it simply. And not to blame Jessica, there's also the natural reflex to feel stuck in shock when facing people who clearly are not speaking their minds. In that case I'm sure a little habit of "what." to those people can quickly stop the toxic game. That's why I thought it requires most people to be a bit tougher and yet softer and have a natural or trained desire to confront things. It's a strange game of having empathy about our weaknesses and yet not letting them spoil the place.