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Ask HN: How to Deal with Plans and Clients

3 points by dangerface 5y ago

Im a web developer for a small ad agency. When we get in a complicated web build I like to plan out all the deliverables and brake it down into phases with client feed back and sign off throughout. During the build we have multiple meeting throughout where I ask the client if this is what they wanted and the client just says yes to everything. Its not until we are 95% complete that the client actually starts to consider how they will use the site and then they want to change it. I start to amend to the clients new requirements but the new requirements have little to do with the old and so the project is just amended into no plan no clue. The only alternative I have found is holding the client to the stuff they have signed off, but the client hates this and so does every one else at my work they just think i'm causing problems by wanting to do what we agreed. Anyone else have to deal with this?

brudgers 5y ago
Design is iterative. Consider the alternative where you got to 95% and told the client that they can't have what they want. It's work. That's why you get paid. Good luck.
- dangerface 5y ago
  How do you quote? If design is iterative there is no way to spec out a project and give the client a quote, no quote no work. If I do quote then once we get 95% into the project the client wants to go back on it all but considers it just amends rather than a requote. I would happily design the same website over and over again for the rest of my life if I didn't also have to justify the cost of doing that to the client.
  - brudgers 5y ago
    The key is good clients. Good clients are aware of how the process works. The problem is it takes a long time to develop good clients and newer consultants tend to meet poor clients...ones that burned the previous consultant or ones that have no experience or ones that don’t value long term business relationships. Communication is important. The client can have anything they want. But from day one everything costs money. Nickel and diming is the business model of consulting. And it is no matter how fat the contract. If a client has an issue with paying for your work, fire them.
  - France_is_bacon 5y ago
    brudgers is 100% correct. You have to happily design the same website over and over again for the rest of your life. The real issue is communication. Large companies will know what to do and how it works. But some companies who have never done a project just simply have no basis for understanding. This is where your expertise comes in. You have to be so clear and explain over and over the issues with them not testing up front. Explain and show how expensive it is to make a change 95% into the project. I'm sure there are zillions of examples all over the internet, and videos galore that can 1) explain it to them, and 2) show that it is NOT you, but that is just the way it is. Someone wrote that charging by the hour is superior than by project. That is one of those things that is like, "Yeah, except..." If you know how to do something extremely well and know exactly how much time it will take, you can quote a flat rate and make much, much more money than doing hourly, that's just a fact. Furthermore, in complex construction projects, they give a flat rate bid, and you tell me - how much more dangerous is doing a $2 billion construction project on an airport rather than a $20K or $30K or $100K software project? The way it is done is that the construction company gives a bid, but makes money on the change orders, which always happen. There's no way around it. You just have to have an excellent contract, of course. But, again, communication is the key. If YOU don't communicate correctly, and 100% totally forthcoming to the client that you are working for, than it really is your fault. YOU are the one with the expertise. Show videos. Give presentations. Specifically on how changing into the design process will significantly escalate the price. And if they don't take it seriously up front and do the testing up front, it is on them. And if they steadfastly refuse or won't commit the time to even hear what you have to say, let alone do the up front design work, then it's a strong signal to walk away. Either that or you find a way of doing smaller projects to teach them, if that is possible.
    - dangerface 5y ago
      You are both correct, thanks for the advice as difficult as I am finding it communication is the key thats missing I am focusing too much on the development side of it like a typical developer but the client is just never going to see it that way. I need to focus more on my communication rather than just hoping they get it.
      - 5y ago
jimmyvalmer 5y ago
This is why we bill by time. If you're billing by project, expect to lose money.

3 points by dangerface 5y ago

brudgers 5y ago

Design is iterative. Consider the alternative where you got to 95% and told the client that they can't have what they want. It's work. That's why you get paid. Good luck.

dangerface 5y ago
How do you quote? If design is iterative there is no way to spec out a project and give the client a quote, no quote no work. If I do quote then once we get 95% into the project the client wants to go back on it all but considers it just amends rather than a requote. I would happily design the same website over and over again for the rest of my life if I didn't also have to justify the cost of doing that to the client.
- brudgers 5y ago
  The key is good clients. Good clients are aware of how the process works. The problem is it takes a long time to develop good clients and newer consultants tend to meet poor clients...ones that burned the previous consultant or ones that have no experience or ones that don’t value long term business relationships. Communication is important. The client can have anything they want. But from day one everything costs money. Nickel and diming is the business model of consulting. And it is no matter how fat the contract. If a client has an issue with paying for your work, fire them.
- France_is_bacon 5y ago
  brudgers is 100% correct. You have to happily design the same website over and over again for the rest of your life. The real issue is communication. Large companies will know what to do and how it works. But some companies who have never done a project just simply have no basis for understanding. This is where your expertise comes in. You have to be so clear and explain over and over the issues with them not testing up front. Explain and show how expensive it is to make a change 95% into the project. I'm sure there are zillions of examples all over the internet, and videos galore that can 1) explain it to them, and 2) show that it is NOT you, but that is just the way it is. Someone wrote that charging by the hour is superior than by project. That is one of those things that is like, "Yeah, except..." If you know how to do something extremely well and know exactly how much time it will take, you can quote a flat rate and make much, much more money than doing hourly, that's just a fact. Furthermore, in complex construction projects, they give a flat rate bid, and you tell me - how much more dangerous is doing a $2 billion construction project on an airport rather than a $20K or $30K or $100K software project? The way it is done is that the construction company gives a bid, but makes money on the change orders, which always happen. There's no way around it. You just have to have an excellent contract, of course. But, again, communication is the key. If YOU don't communicate correctly, and 100% totally forthcoming to the client that you are working for, than it really is your fault. YOU are the one with the expertise. Show videos. Give presentations. Specifically on how changing into the design process will significantly escalate the price. And if they don't take it seriously up front and do the testing up front, it is on them. And if they steadfastly refuse or won't commit the time to even hear what you have to say, let alone do the up front design work, then it's a strong signal to walk away. Either that or you find a way of doing smaller projects to teach them, if that is possible.
  - dangerface 5y ago
    You are both correct, thanks for the advice as difficult as I am finding it communication is the key thats missing I am focusing too much on the development side of it like a typical developer but the client is just never going to see it that way. I need to focus more on my communication rather than just hoping they get it.
    - 5y ago

jimmyvalmer 5y ago

This is why we bill by time. If you're billing by project, expect to lose money.