5 ms·

Social groups, whether in academia, industry, civil society, or anywhere else are never as able to maintain the level of objectivity they think they possess. Gr

Social groups, whether in academia, industry, civil society, or anywhere else are never as able to maintain the level of objectivity they think they possess. Group think isn't (just) a structural failure but a intractable bias all human communities face simply because they are made up of humans. I think there is an implicit belief in the scientific and technology communities that rational investigation can be free from bias. But social bias is simply part of the reality of being human and ignoring that bias becomes much more dangerous and damaging than acknowledging and mitigating it.

JackFr 5y ago
Precisely this. Research and science will at their heart always be a fundamentally human endeavor and we ignore that at our peril.
ObserverNeutral 5y ago
But academia is better because your paper has your name on it and when the bias somehow resolves itself then people would know you were right, even though you might be dead by the time it happens. People in academia are still humans and as you said they have biases but they also try to play the biases to elevate themselves. However the cumulative look at a paper during the course of decades and centuries are bound to sniff BS and unmask it This is different than say trading in financial markets where biases are always there and the issue never resolves itself, just companies and CEOs come and go.
linuxftw 5y ago
Many scientists actively speak out about the strong biases and conflicts of interest in their respective industries. The media universally lambasts them as crackpots. Couple that with the fact that most people don't feel comfortable with the topic of 'science,' they choose to mentally defer any interpretation of evidence/facts to some authority, it's incredibly easy to mislead the population.
- teachingassist 5y ago
  Only speaking against popular biases and conflicts of interest often is crackpot - it represents a failure to recognise your own biases and conflicts of interests. You can present an alternative view without accusing other people of bias.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - linuxftw 5y ago
    > You can present an alternative view without accusing other people of bias. Maybe at some point in the distant past. It's all industry shills now.
cratermoon 5y ago
All of the above applies to journalism as well, and is something that any media-savvy person will keep in mind at all times. Whenever I see someone expressing an opinion that this or that source is biased, or that there is such a thing as an unbiased source, I do a mental face-palm. The best propaganda and misinformation is framed to appear unbiased to its audience.
- shuntress 5y ago
  Things to watch out for are slogans like "Fair and balanced"
  - kbenson 5y ago
    Actually, I think the ham-fisted approach like that is easier to spot without paying attention. The harder ones to spot will always be the ones that align with your own interests and ideals. The best way I've found to get some perspective on those is to occasionally go to the "fair and balanced" site specifically to get the other take on an issue. It soon becomes obvious that there are actually different takes on the issue, but neither side is giving even lip service to the other sides position, instead just putting up straw men to knock down. It's a lot harder for these sites to claim being unbiased successfully while having a lot of bias when you have more information than they assume you do, so that's one good way to spot it (but it requires a lot of work and vigilance, so is hard to keep up).
- majormajor 5y ago
  > The best propaganda and misinformation is framed to appear unbiased to its audience. The most effective propaganda I've seen seems to be highly emotionally charged. Political parties and religions are our most prominent organizations that depend entirely on evangelism, and I don't see many examples of them thriving through appearing to appear purely logical and unbiased.
  - mistermann 5y ago
    Key phrase: "that I've seen". Well done propaganda (framed to appear unbiased to its audience) is not even noticed as such by the reader. The effectiveness of this can be seen right here on HN in the hundreds/thousands of culture-war themed posts where people will quote newspaper articles that are written (intentionally or not) in a loose/ambiguous/leading way that facilitates significant interpretation of the words, so different readers will form different conclusions, and neither can be deemed wrong as they can all be using perfectly sound logic. When someone posts such an article as proof of their viewpoint, predictable heated arguments ensue, with both sides typically believing themselves to be right.
bobthechef 5y ago
Those we regard as "intelligent" are actually capable of more egregious errors than those we do not regard that way. If a person's will is corrupted by vice, then he uses his intellect to rationalize his errors and his vices. And the more intelligent, the most elaborate these rationalizations can become until this person is trapped in the thick fog of his vile theories, unable and unwilling to escape. They become blinded by their own evil constructions which they then transmit onto their students. While vices like those having to do with sexual depravity (and the resulting mental blindness it causes) are ubiquitous, pride and envy are especially central here. They produce the same contemptuous attitude that leads such people to hate the masses and suppose that if they believe something, then it must be false. It also explains the politics of today.
actually_a_dog 5y ago
Let's not forget: this also applies to forums, such as HN. I have seen enough comments (edit: with significant merit) downvoted without comment to believe this is true here, and I've seen it on other forums as well. Go against the prevailing opinion at your own risk, if you value fake internet points.

JackFr 5y ago

Precisely this. Research and science will at their heart always be a fundamentally human endeavor and we ignore that at our peril.

ObserverNeutral 5y ago

But academia is better because your paper has your name on it and when the bias somehow resolves itself then people would know you were right, even though you might be dead by the time it happens. People in academia are still humans and as you said they have biases but they also try to play the biases to elevate themselves. However the cumulative look at a paper during the course of decades and centuries are bound to sniff BS and unmask it This is different than say trading in financial markets where biases are always there and the issue never resolves itself, just companies and CEOs come and go.

linuxftw 5y ago

Many scientists actively speak out about the strong biases and conflicts of interest in their respective industries. The media universally lambasts them as crackpots. Couple that with the fact that most people don't feel comfortable with the topic of 'science,' they choose to mentally defer any interpretation of evidence/facts to some authority, it's incredibly easy to mislead the population.

teachingassist 5y ago
Only speaking against popular biases and conflicts of interest often is crackpot - it represents a failure to recognise your own biases and conflicts of interests. You can present an alternative view without accusing other people of bias.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- linuxftw 5y ago
  > You can present an alternative view without accusing other people of bias. Maybe at some point in the distant past. It's all industry shills now.

cratermoon 5y ago

All of the above applies to journalism as well, and is something that any media-savvy person will keep in mind at all times. Whenever I see someone expressing an opinion that this or that source is biased, or that there is such a thing as an unbiased source, I do a mental face-palm. The best propaganda and misinformation is framed to appear unbiased to its audience.

shuntress 5y ago
Things to watch out for are slogans like "Fair and balanced"
- kbenson 5y ago
  Actually, I think the ham-fisted approach like that is easier to spot without paying attention. The harder ones to spot will always be the ones that align with your own interests and ideals. The best way I've found to get some perspective on those is to occasionally go to the "fair and balanced" site specifically to get the other take on an issue. It soon becomes obvious that there are actually different takes on the issue, but neither side is giving even lip service to the other sides position, instead just putting up straw men to knock down. It's a lot harder for these sites to claim being unbiased successfully while having a lot of bias when you have more information than they assume you do, so that's one good way to spot it (but it requires a lot of work and vigilance, so is hard to keep up).
majormajor 5y ago
> The best propaganda and misinformation is framed to appear unbiased to its audience. The most effective propaganda I've seen seems to be highly emotionally charged. Political parties and religions are our most prominent organizations that depend entirely on evangelism, and I don't see many examples of them thriving through appearing to appear purely logical and unbiased.
- mistermann 5y ago
  Key phrase: "that I've seen". Well done propaganda (framed to appear unbiased to its audience) is not even noticed as such by the reader. The effectiveness of this can be seen right here on HN in the hundreds/thousands of culture-war themed posts where people will quote newspaper articles that are written (intentionally or not) in a loose/ambiguous/leading way that facilitates significant interpretation of the words, so different readers will form different conclusions, and neither can be deemed wrong as they can all be using perfectly sound logic. When someone posts such an article as proof of their viewpoint, predictable heated arguments ensue, with both sides typically believing themselves to be right.

bobthechef 5y ago

Those we regard as "intelligent" are actually capable of more egregious errors than those we do not regard that way. If a person's will is corrupted by vice, then he uses his intellect to rationalize his errors and his vices. And the more intelligent, the most elaborate these rationalizations can become until this person is trapped in the thick fog of his vile theories, unable and unwilling to escape. They become blinded by their own evil constructions which they then transmit onto their students. While vices like those having to do with sexual depravity (and the resulting mental blindness it causes) are ubiquitous, pride and envy are especially central here. They produce the same contemptuous attitude that leads such people to hate the masses and suppose that if they believe something, then it must be false. It also explains the politics of today.

actually_a_dog 5y ago

Let's not forget: this also applies to forums, such as HN. I have seen enough comments (edit: with significant merit) downvoted without comment to believe this is true here, and I've seen it on other forums as well. Go against the prevailing opinion at your own risk, if you value fake internet points.