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Let’s Encrypt DST Root CA X3 Expiration – September 2021
- Maxburn 5y agoAt some point old devices that aren't receiving updates really need to go away, a good thing for security.
- notRobot 5y agoThe solution is not to throw away old devices, it's to figure out how to keep them updated
- fnord77 5y agoand a bad thing for e-waste.
- ses1984 5y agoDevices that can’t be updated all face an early ewaste destiny, don’t blame expiring certs.
- fnord77 5y agowell maybe a trust system that forces devices that can't be updated into obsolescence is not a good system.
- josephcsible 5y agoMaybe having devices that can't be updated is not a good system.
- Spivak 5y agoHaving perfectly functional devices that become obsolete because the world moves around them is also not a good system. We don't have to design our support targets to be a moving window of >= $current_version - 2.
- tialaramex 5y agoArguing with time's arrow is fruitless. The world will change, it isn't going to wait around for your OK. For the most part we aren't talking about needless turnover here. The trust store represents an institutional claim, between now and whenever you stop using this device, all the people who have these private keys will take proper care of them. I actually think that claim is extremely dubious for these Android devices today, it relies on people we meanwhile judged as incompetent to have nevertheless correctly destroyed key materials in their possession when they ceased to do business. I would not be astonished to discover that this already did not happen at least once since the devices ceased to get updates. For example I imagine all the Symantec roots are included, and likewise StartCom/ WoSign.
- bombcar 5y agoMy dad had to replace his working but older Motorola phone because MMS stopped working because of outdated certs and he couldn't update anything to get them working again.
- Spivak 5y agoThis is kinda silly. These are problems that, as an industry, we make for ourselves. The fact that you can't make a network connected device that continues to function for decades without a constant maintenance is a problem not a feature.
- doublerabbit 5y agoSure you can. Make an application that is frozen from future features but can still communicate with the platform at a basic level. Text Messages have been with us for centuries and still compatible with nearly 99% of devices. Feature updates normally consist of "your device isn't supported and lock the user out without saying Good Bye. If you create a platform that holds the basic for all versions and don't introduce new features to that; you won't have so much e-waste nor much maintenance upkeep.
- kstrauser 5y agoTo a point. The environmental footprint of a 486 tower system today would be much higher than modern system because the humans that use it more slowly and who have to maintain it use a lot more resources.
- selfhoster11 5y agoGiven lightweight software, a 486 tower is usable indefinitely with a zero environmental footprint as long as the electricity comes from a sustainable source (such as solar).
- kstrauser 5y agoIt is as long as you don’t consider the footprint of the person using it. If it runs more slowly than a modern system such that a human has to spend more time working with it, then it’s almost certainly less resource friendly.
- selfhoster11 5y ago486s ran plenty fast in their time. With a tiny bit of modern hardware like the addition of an SSD, the only thing stopping them from being blazing-fast is modern bloated software stacks.
- Wowfunhappy 5y agoI don't understand. The human wouldn't cease to exist regardless of how fast or slow their computer is, right?
- kstrauser 5y agoIt’s easier if you imagine an office full of people. If you have slower systems, you have to hire more people to do the same amount of work.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
- aisio 5y ago"In OpenSSL 1.0.x, a quirk in certificate verification means that even clients that trust ISRG Root X1 will fail" All current FIPS accredited devices use openssl 1.0.X, so the lets encrypt cross-signing hack will essentially break multiple corporate networks until the next openssl fips module is released at the end of this year. And could take another 6 months to make it into live systems
- tux3 5y agoIsn't the point of FIPS accreditation that the organization wants to prioritize compliance over functionality/security? A FIPS device being unpatched or broken for a few months almost seems like the natural state of things, at this point.
- jstrom 5y agoMy experience with HW HSMs has been that the FIPS process is so expensive that companies are only willing to put out a new FIPS-certified version once year. Also the certification itself seems to be more concerned with high-level security requirements rather than proof that any particular features of your HSM work correctly. So the answer to any particular bug is typically wait until next year's version which includes all bug fixes that the normal releases have built up over the past year, or re-evaluate if you really need the certification.
- josephcsible 5y agoYes, 100% this. The best evidence is probably that Dual_EC_DRBG got FIPS approval, but ChaCha20/Poly1305 and Curve25519 have not.
- gregoriol 5y agoIs there another provider that could be an alternative to this? (zerossl maybe?)
- currysausage 5y agoBasically ZeroSSL and Buypass, yes. Buypass certificates have the additional benefit of being valid for 180 days. The rate limits are a bit stricter than with Let's Encrypt, I believe: https://www.buypass.com/ssl/resources/go-ssl-technical-specification https://www.buypass.com/ssl/resources/go-ssl-technical-speci...
- crazypython 5y agoI assume they are more trusted by older devices than Let's Encrypt. Source?
- gregoriol 5y agoNot sure its reliable but I've found this comparison: https://www.xf.is/2020/06/30/list-of-free-acme-ssl-providers/ https://www.xf.is/2020/06/30/list-of-free-acme-ssl-providers...
- Deathmax 5y agoZeroSSL's current RSA intermediate is https://crt.sh/?id=2427368505 https://crt.sh/?id=2427368505, which chains up to USERTrust RSA Certification Authority (https://crt.sh/?caid=1167 https://crt.sh/?caid=1167). I was going to migrate over to ZeroSSL, but there were red flags in the form of missing documentation that you would expect from a CA, like what is the chain of trust for certificates that are being issued? If I have to issue myself a certificate to check which CA is being used to sign the cert, that doesn't feel right.
- tialaramex 5y agoI suspect there is no source that tracks exactly what's trusted on a large range of devices. Perhaps somebody should maintain this information, although it seems like a really thankless volunteer task, I'm really interested in such stuff and still it makes me feel tired just thinking about it.
- crazypython 5y agoI wish Let's Encrypt had a plan to get cross-signed by a CA those older devices still trust.
- Aissen 5y agoWhich devices ? They did find a solution for most Android devices, and it is now the default chain provided via ACME.
- mrtesthah 5y agoHow about macOS for example? After September, Let’s Encrypt will become untrusted on all versions prior to 10.12.
- TonyTrapp 5y agoDoesn't macOS allow you to add new root certificates to its certificate store? If not, you could still use a browser that brings its own certificate store (e.g. Firefox). This is significantly different from locked-down or embedded IoT devices you have no control over.
- mrtesthah 5y agoOh, I keep my computer up to date. It's everyone else's computer that needs to work with my Let's-Encrypt-certificate-using software that's the problem.
- tialaramex 5y agoOne small piece of good news for Let's Encrypt is that it's so common chances are even your most hardcore fans, who presumably first notice this issue on your site because they visit so often, will then also get the same problem on half a dozen other sites they visit. This applies especially for the case where what goes wrong is exactly that the visitor doesn't trust ISRG and ceases to trust DST Root CA X3 when its self-signed root expires. A lot of other problems will bite those who get new certificates first, but this problem will bite every site with a Let's Encrypt certificate at essentially the same moment regardless. So at least the blame will be spread around thinly and for most users there will be an overwhelming impression they need to actually do something on their side and not just moan and hope the problem goes away.