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It also only works if the smart contract is a legal contract, which is something that gets hashed out in court, not in code review. Some cryptocurrency enthusi

It also only works if the smart contract is a legal contract, which is something that gets hashed out in court, not in code review. Some cryptocurrency enthusiasts seem to think declaring "code is law" actually makes it so while this is pretty far from the truth.

judge2020 5y ago
Code is law applies at least to the flow of money - unlike USD, the court can’t do something like garnish your wages to pay back a 10M settlement by taking some crypto out of your incoming transactions, both due to the anonymity and cryptographic parts of the concept. Of course, they could simply throw you in jail (civil contempt of court), but you still keep your money in that scenario.
- elcomet 5y ago
  They can order you to give back the money. And like in real life, you can refuse to tell where the money is hidden.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    Also like in real life, you might have spent the money.
    - lobocinza 5y ago
      Or lost it day trading.
- thatjamesdude 5y ago
  Comments like this make me think we software engineers live in a different world. >unlike USD, the court can’t do something like garnish your wages to pay back a 10M settlement by taking some crypto out of your incoming transactions You think so, do you? "The law is the because that's what the law says it is". It might not be possible now (and I'm not sure I believe that, you can garnish foreign wages) but it will be if the need arises. "But the code" yeah, no, that's a silly argument that only applies to cyberspace and not the physical world you occupy
  - judge2020 5y ago
    It's 'legally' possible in that the court can say that you have to pay back some amount of crypto or some amount of USD, but with crypto it's not something that they can enforce in reality if the debtor doesn't cooperate. I'm saying the court can't force incoming transactions to be 60/40 split with 40% going to a different party, and the anonymity part of crypto means you can create a new wallet whenever you want to get paid without the court even knowing that you are receiving crypto as payment.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > and the anonymity part of crypto means you can create a new wallet whenever you want to get paid without the court even knowing that you are receiving crypto as payment. Yeah, and if you get paid in cash you can keep it secret to. OTOH, if your lifestyle reveals you have access go and are spending funds and not making required payments, courts can impose other consequences, up to and including imprisonment. But usually, seizing and selling off physical or reachable intangible property would be the first way to handle monetary debts. And, sure, crypto itself may be easy to conceal, but if you can’t use it to acquire anything tangible without sacrificing the safety, is it really usefully safe?
- dools 5y ago
  Didn't the US government just drain the crypto accounts of some online hacker collective that ransomwared that petrol pipeline? Also the verb is "garnisheed". They're not putting parsely on it :)
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Also the verb is "garnisheed". No, its “garnish”, past-tense “garnished”. > They're not putting parsely on it :) No, but its the exact same verb, just a different sense.
    - dools 5y ago
      No it's not, the word is garnishee
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        “garnishee” is the noun for the person subject to the garnishment (that is, the person owing/controlling money to/of the debtor whose held funds or payments are redirected from the debtor to the creditor); the verb for imposing the garnishment is “garnish”, and in the past tense “garnished” not “garnisheed”. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/garnishee https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/garnishee
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
my reading of the code is law idea is that the code determines what is possible in the system, in this theory you can say that the law which code represents in more ironclad than most laws (at least common law) however this reading, which I thought was the default one, does not take into account bugs occurring in code or that people may not have thought rigorously enough to prevent people from doing not what the law intends but also what the code allows.

judge2020 5y ago

Code is law applies at least to the flow of money - unlike USD, the court can’t do something like garnish your wages to pay back a 10M settlement by taking some crypto out of your incoming transactions, both due to the anonymity and cryptographic parts of the concept. Of course, they could simply throw you in jail (civil contempt of court), but you still keep your money in that scenario.

elcomet 5y ago
They can order you to give back the money. And like in real life, you can refuse to tell where the money is hidden.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  Also like in real life, you might have spent the money.
  - lobocinza 5y ago
    Or lost it day trading.
thatjamesdude 5y ago
Comments like this make me think we software engineers live in a different world. >unlike USD, the court can’t do something like garnish your wages to pay back a 10M settlement by taking some crypto out of your incoming transactions You think so, do you? "The law is the because that's what the law says it is". It might not be possible now (and I'm not sure I believe that, you can garnish foreign wages) but it will be if the need arises. "But the code" yeah, no, that's a silly argument that only applies to cyberspace and not the physical world you occupy
- judge2020 5y ago
  It's 'legally' possible in that the court can say that you have to pay back some amount of crypto or some amount of USD, but with crypto it's not something that they can enforce in reality if the debtor doesn't cooperate. I'm saying the court can't force incoming transactions to be 60/40 split with 40% going to a different party, and the anonymity part of crypto means you can create a new wallet whenever you want to get paid without the court even knowing that you are receiving crypto as payment.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > and the anonymity part of crypto means you can create a new wallet whenever you want to get paid without the court even knowing that you are receiving crypto as payment. Yeah, and if you get paid in cash you can keep it secret to. OTOH, if your lifestyle reveals you have access go and are spending funds and not making required payments, courts can impose other consequences, up to and including imprisonment. But usually, seizing and selling off physical or reachable intangible property would be the first way to handle monetary debts. And, sure, crypto itself may be easy to conceal, but if you can’t use it to acquire anything tangible without sacrificing the safety, is it really usefully safe?
dools 5y ago
Didn't the US government just drain the crypto accounts of some online hacker collective that ransomwared that petrol pipeline? Also the verb is "garnisheed". They're not putting parsely on it :)
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Also the verb is "garnisheed". No, its “garnish”, past-tense “garnished”. > They're not putting parsely on it :) No, but its the exact same verb, just a different sense.
  - dools 5y ago
    No it's not, the word is garnishee
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      “garnishee” is the noun for the person subject to the garnishment (that is, the person owing/controlling money to/of the debtor whose held funds or payments are redirected from the debtor to the creditor); the verb for imposing the garnishment is “garnish”, and in the past tense “garnished” not “garnisheed”. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/garnishee https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/garnishee

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

my reading of the code is law idea is that the code determines what is possible in the system, in this theory you can say that the law which code represents in more ironclad than most laws (at least common law) however this reading, which I thought was the default one, does not take into account bugs occurring in code or that people may not have thought rigorously enough to prevent people from doing not what the law intends but also what the code allows.