4 ms·

Counters are often depicted as a unique feature in Japanese but I think it originated in Chinese, as their use of counters are more systematic (e.g. instead of

by euske 5y ago

Counters are often depicted as a unique feature in Japanese but I think it originated in Chinese, as their use of counters are more systematic (e.g. instead of saying "this book", you can say "this [book-counter]" in Chinese, which is not allowed in Japanese "*この冊"). Also many onomatopoeic words exist in English, but they just exhibit in a different way (e.g. "glitter" or "slippery" sounds very onomatopoeic to me). Politeness is indeed an interesting feature, and I see a lot of Japanese natives (especially in their teens) struggle with it. Disclaimer: I'm a Japanese native learning Chinese.

solidsnack9000 5y ago
A very singular feature of Japanese, if not a unique feature, that stands out to most learners of it, is the variation in the numbers with the counters and the sound changes for how the counter sounds vary with the number sounds. Consider the examples offered: ..."hitori, futari" for people, or "ippon, nihon" for long objects.... The "number part" varies considerably: one and two are "hito-" and "futa-" in the first case and "i-" and "ni-" in the second. In the second example, the counter is "-ppon", with a plosive stop; in the second, it's "-hon" with an affricate. The combination of varying number pronunciations and the Japanese shares many, many grammatical features with Korean, including much of the politeness grammar system; however, when I looked over a Korean grammar linguistics book recently, I wasn't able to find anything to indicate that counting was as complicated as this.
- fenomas 5y ago
  I don't think it's as complicated as you're describing. There are just two systems; the regular case with regular numbers, and irregular cases using hito/futa/etc. One has to learn which counters use which system, but there are just the two of them. Note also that ~hon changing to ~bon/~ppon is a general feature of Japanese compound words, it's nothing to do with counters specifically.
  - solidsnack9000 5y ago
    All the things described are real features of Japanese counting and are real examples drawn from the Japanese language. There is sometimes variation where a person needs to learn which each number for which thing uses which system. For example, with people, a common way of counting is "hitori", "futari" (your irregular cases), and then "san nin", "yo nin", ... (your regular cases). It's not always that way; but the flexibility exists and that is quite different from Chinese. The sound change -hon to -ppon and similar sound changes are not actually regular in Japanese -- there's not a clear phonological rule for them. Although counters don't generally vary in pronunciation for each count of the counter, many of the common ones do; and these variations must be learned per number, per counter. The earlier commenter spoke to characteristics of Japanese that might seem unique to a student. Counters certainly are shared with Chinese; but these other things -- the variation in the numbers and the variation in the counter, itself -- are not.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - fenomas 5y ago
      Sorry, but I don't follow what you're disagreeing with. For the numeric stems there are two systems, and one learns which to use when, as I said. For the sound change, I didn't say it was "regular" (and I don't know what you mean by that here), I said that it's not specific to counters. wiki: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%80%A3%E6%BF%81 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%80%A3%E6%BF%81 As for whether it's unique, wiki suggests that Korean has something similar but I wouldn't know.
      - solidsnack9000 5y ago
        Sorry, but what are you saying is not in accord with the examples I gave or the rules I described? My earlier comment did discuss Korean, by the way.
    - lhorie 5y ago
      > The sound change -hon to -ppon and similar sound changes are not actually regular in Japanese -- there's not a clear phonological rule for them. There is a loose rule for compound word contractions (adding tenten to the first letter of the second word), e.g. "sakura" gains a tenten in "senbonzakura". However, as you said, this is not universally the case. For example, "ehon" (lit. drawing book) is simply "e" (drawing) + "hon" (book), not "ebon".
pezezin 5y ago
My girlfriend told me that keigo is so complicated that even for Japanese adults like her who have been working for foreign companies and using another language for too long, going back to work at a Japanese company can be too difficult, as they have forgotten a great deal of it. I'm trying to learn the language, but man it's difficult.
solidsnack9000 5y ago
Although "glitter" and "slippery" may sound onomatopoeic, neither one is actually onomatopoeia. The latter case is perhaps the easiest, since "slippery" is an adjective derived from the verb "slip", still in use. (The word "glitter" is also derived from a verb, but this verb is no longer used.) Generally, words that are onomatopoeia don't have an etymology like that; if they did, then the sound would not be the result of trying to create the impression of something. For example, the "-y" in "slippery" is there because it's an adjective. The extent of onomatopoeia in Japanese is indeed quite different from English (and Chinese).

by euske 5y ago

solidsnack9000 5y ago

A very singular feature of Japanese, if not a unique feature, that stands out to most learners of it, is the variation in the numbers with the counters and the sound changes for how the counter sounds vary with the number sounds. Consider the examples offered: ..."hitori, futari" for people, or "ippon, nihon" for long objects.... The "number part" varies considerably: one and two are "hito-" and "futa-" in the first case and "i-" and "ni-" in the second. In the second example, the counter is "-ppon", with a plosive stop; in the second, it's "-hon" with an affricate. The combination of varying number pronunciations and the Japanese shares many, many grammatical features with Korean, including much of the politeness grammar system; however, when I looked over a Korean grammar linguistics book recently, I wasn't able to find anything to indicate that counting was as complicated as this.

fenomas 5y ago
I don't think it's as complicated as you're describing. There are just two systems; the regular case with regular numbers, and irregular cases using hito/futa/etc. One has to learn which counters use which system, but there are just the two of them. Note also that ~hon changing to ~bon/~ppon is a general feature of Japanese compound words, it's nothing to do with counters specifically.
- solidsnack9000 5y ago
  All the things described are real features of Japanese counting and are real examples drawn from the Japanese language. There is sometimes variation where a person needs to learn which each number for which thing uses which system. For example, with people, a common way of counting is "hitori", "futari" (your irregular cases), and then "san nin", "yo nin", ... (your regular cases). It's not always that way; but the flexibility exists and that is quite different from Chinese. The sound change -hon to -ppon and similar sound changes are not actually regular in Japanese -- there's not a clear phonological rule for them. Although counters don't generally vary in pronunciation for each count of the counter, many of the common ones do; and these variations must be learned per number, per counter. The earlier commenter spoke to characteristics of Japanese that might seem unique to a student. Counters certainly are shared with Chinese; but these other things -- the variation in the numbers and the variation in the counter, itself -- are not.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - fenomas 5y ago
    Sorry, but I don't follow what you're disagreeing with. For the numeric stems there are two systems, and one learns which to use when, as I said. For the sound change, I didn't say it was "regular" (and I don't know what you mean by that here), I said that it's not specific to counters. wiki: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%80%A3%E6%BF%81 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%80%A3%E6%BF%81 As for whether it's unique, wiki suggests that Korean has something similar but I wouldn't know.
    - solidsnack9000 5y ago
      Sorry, but what are you saying is not in accord with the examples I gave or the rules I described? My earlier comment did discuss Korean, by the way.
  - lhorie 5y ago
    > The sound change -hon to -ppon and similar sound changes are not actually regular in Japanese -- there's not a clear phonological rule for them. There is a loose rule for compound word contractions (adding tenten to the first letter of the second word), e.g. "sakura" gains a tenten in "senbonzakura". However, as you said, this is not universally the case. For example, "ehon" (lit. drawing book) is simply "e" (drawing) + "hon" (book), not "ebon".

pezezin 5y ago

My girlfriend told me that keigo is so complicated that even for Japanese adults like her who have been working for foreign companies and using another language for too long, going back to work at a Japanese company can be too difficult, as they have forgotten a great deal of it. I'm trying to learn the language, but man it's difficult.

solidsnack9000 5y ago

Although "glitter" and "slippery" may sound onomatopoeic, neither one is actually onomatopoeia. The latter case is perhaps the easiest, since "slippery" is an adjective derived from the verb "slip", still in use. (The word "glitter" is also derived from a verb, but this verb is no longer used.) Generally, words that are onomatopoeia don't have an etymology like that; if they did, then the sound would not be the result of trying to create the impression of something. For example, the "-y" in "slippery" is there because it's an adjective. The extent of onomatopoeia in Japanese is indeed quite different from English (and Chinese).