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English pronunciation only vaguely follows word spelling and must be memorized in many cases. The classic phrase: "A rough-coated, dough-faced, thoughtful plo

English pronunciation only vaguely follows word spelling and must be memorized in many cases. The classic phrase: "A rough-coated, dough-faced, thoughtful ploughman strode through the streets of Scarborough; after falling into a slough, he coughed and hiccoughed." shows how the "-ough" has no reasonable rule that can be used to determine word pronunciation, despite similar spelling. By comparison, spelling and word pronunciation in Spanish and Italian (and probably many others as well) match exactly. You know how to spell a word from the way it sounds. You can easily read aloud written text and have little to no idea what it means.

Digit-Al 5y ago
My favourite joke about that sort of thing is how following the exact rules of the English language "ghoti" is a perfectly valid spelling of fish :-)
rsj_hn 5y ago
The thing is, there are rules and explanations for everything, but they are not the kind of rules that would help a foreigner learn the language. They are the rules of languages and orthography being transformed as a result of waves of invasions, with each invader bringing their own language and changing the pronounciation of some of the native words, to be replaced by another invader doing the same. This is not unique to English, but I do think that English is more eclectic than most other languages.
hinoki 5y ago
You should have used Loughborough instead of Scarborough :) Low-barrow? Luf-baruff? I certainly had to look it up.
- jamiek88 5y ago
  It’s luff-burra to save others looking!
- Symbiote 5y ago
  I know the university, and I'm amused that they choose https://www.lboro.ac.uk/ https://www.lboro.ac.uk/ rather than loughborough.ac.uk. It is about 20km north of Leicester, which I think is the largest city with a -cester ending, commonly mispronounced by foreigners.
ojosilva 5y ago
The irony: despite Mark Twain's vicious rant, German is quite consistent on following the spelling, just like Spanish et al. That doesn't mean some phonemes aren't hard to pronounce for the uninitiated, nor does it exclude accents and dilects and the everyday contraptions of the language.
- jacobr1 5y ago
  Was that true in his time, or has it changed as result of the frequent reforms that have occurred over the past century?
  - anoncake 5y ago
    Spelling wasn't standardized until 1901.
- hilbert42 5y ago
  "...despite Mark Twain's vicious rant," I don't believe Mark Twain's Appendix D is vicious nor a rant. In fact, it is a brilliant piece of humorous writing in its own right and I would give a great deal to be able to write and communicate as well as that. Furthermore, having worked in both Austria and Germany I've known several native German speakers who are fluent in English and who laughed themselves almost hoarse after I brought it to their attention. They weren't a bit offended by it, they then pointed to the many peculiar idiosyncrasies of English and said that in any competition for same then English would likely be the winner. (BTW, you'll even find native German speakers reading The Awful German Language on Project Gutenberg.) Moreover, I learned more about the German language from Twain's writing than I ever did from the equivalent number of words in any German language textbook written in English. Clearly, I cannot do justice in the space or time available but let me mention a few instances. "These things are called "separable verbs." The German grammar is blistered all over with separable verbs; and the wider the two portions of one of them are spread apart, the better the author of the crime is pleased with his performance." The 'REISTE AB'/'departed' example that Twain quotes is both humorous and very memorable: "The trunks being now ready, he DE- after kissing his mother <...> <...> ...more dearly than life itself, PARTED." After reading this it's almost impossible for someone who is learning the language to ever let separable verbs pass them by without noticing them. "These things are not words, they are alphabetical processions." Of course, they are. And as Twain points out they also possess 'perspective'—and many native German speakers would agree with this assessment, in fact some are quite bemused by the fact that their language has the world's longest words. "<...> Of course when one of these grand mountain ranges goes stretching across the printed page, it adorns and ennobles that literary landscape—but at the same time it is a great distress to the new student, for it blocks up his way; he cannot crawl under it, or climb over it, or tunnel through it. So he resorts to the dictionary for help, but there is no help there." Not only is this wonderfully descriptive prose but it's in fact true. To prove the point, here are a few more that are not included in Twain's text: Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän Betäubungsmittelverschreibungsverordnung Bezirksschornsteinfegermeister Donaudampfschiffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft Whew, that's 79 or 80 letters depending on which spelling one uses. "One cannot overestimate the usefulness of SCHLAG and ZUG." That's very true, and so are very useful (and somewhat tiny) words such as zu, bis and nach — that is, once one gets to understand their German nuances (initially their usage can be confusing—at least I found them to be so given that to, till and until in English are used in a somewhat less prescriptive way. "The Germans do not seem to be afraid to repeat a word when it is the right one. They repeat it several times, if they choose." Until I read this passage, it was never evident to me that we native English speakers actually go out of our way to avoid word repetition. "In the daybeforeyesterdayshortlyaftereleveno'clock Night, the inthistownstandingtavern called 'The Wagoner' was downburnt. When the fire to the onthedownburninghouseresting Stork's Nest reached, flew the parent Storks away. But when the bytheraging, firesurrounded Nest ITSELF caught Fire, straightway plunged the quickreturning Mother-Stork into the Flames and died, her Wings over her young ones outspread." Even the cumbersome German construction is not able to take the pathos out of that picture--indeed, it somehow seems to strengthen it. This item is dated away back yonder months ago. I could have used it sooner, but I was waiting to hear from the Father-stork. I am still waiting. There are some German words which are singularly and powerfully effective. For instance, those which describe lowly, peaceful, and affectionate home life; those which deal with love, in any and all forms, from mere kindly feeling and honest good will toward the passing stranger, clear up to courtship; those which deal with outdoor Nature, in its softest and loveliest aspects—with meadows and forests, and birds and flowers, the fragrance and sunshine of summer, and the moonlight of peaceful winter nights; in a word, those which deal with any and all forms of rest, repose, and peace; those also which deal with the creatures and marvels of fairyland; and lastly and chiefly, in those words which express pathos, is the language surpassingly rich and affective. There are German songs which can make a stranger to the language cry. That shows that the sound of the words is correct—it interprets the meanings with truth and with exactness; and so the ear is informed, and through the ear, the heart." With these wonderfully perceptive words, Twain not only shows us what a master he is at conveying his message but also that he is an acute observer of human nature. It is also indicative that his knowledge and fluency of German is higher than one may gather at first glance. Here, I can attest to the validity of what Twain says in respect of these German words. For instance, Schubert's remarkable song cycles Die schöne Müllerin (The Fair Maid of the Mill) and Die Winterreise ([the] Winter Journey) often reduce me to tears. Also, I find the pathos and heartfelt meaning of these words abundantly evident whenever I wander though a German Friedhof (cemetery). These powerful and yet unusually simple German words stare back from nearly every Grabstein if so as to remind one of one's own mortality.
DFHippie 5y ago
You should work "lough" in there somewhere. It has a completely different pronunciation.
pezezin 5y ago
> You know how to spell a word from the way it sounds. Spanish is my mother language, and actually it's the opposite way: given a written word, there is only one obvious way to read it (except for loanwords and a few words that keep old spellings like "México"), but given a spoken word, it may be written in two different ways (e.g. vaca/baca, kilo/quilo), or it may have a silent H ("ahí hay un hombre que dice ay"). The orthography is not fully phonetic, but you are right it's infinitely easier than English. If you want to find languages with an almost perfect phonetic spelling, look at Eastern/Northern European languages with an ortography created in the late 19th or early 20th century.

Digit-Al 5y ago

My favourite joke about that sort of thing is how following the exact rules of the English language "ghoti" is a perfectly valid spelling of fish :-)

rsj_hn 5y ago

The thing is, there are rules and explanations for everything, but they are not the kind of rules that would help a foreigner learn the language. They are the rules of languages and orthography being transformed as a result of waves of invasions, with each invader bringing their own language and changing the pronounciation of some of the native words, to be replaced by another invader doing the same. This is not unique to English, but I do think that English is more eclectic than most other languages.

hinoki 5y ago

You should have used Loughborough instead of Scarborough :) Low-barrow? Luf-baruff? I certainly had to look it up.

jamiek88 5y ago
It’s luff-burra to save others looking!
Symbiote 5y ago
I know the university, and I'm amused that they choose https://www.lboro.ac.uk/ https://www.lboro.ac.uk/ rather than loughborough.ac.uk. It is about 20km north of Leicester, which I think is the largest city with a -cester ending, commonly mispronounced by foreigners.

ojosilva 5y ago

The irony: despite Mark Twain's vicious rant, German is quite consistent on following the spelling, just like Spanish et al. That doesn't mean some phonemes aren't hard to pronounce for the uninitiated, nor does it exclude accents and dilects and the everyday contraptions of the language.

jacobr1 5y ago
Was that true in his time, or has it changed as result of the frequent reforms that have occurred over the past century?
- anoncake 5y ago
  Spelling wasn't standardized until 1901.
hilbert42 5y ago
"...despite Mark Twain's vicious rant," I don't believe Mark Twain's Appendix D is vicious nor a rant. In fact, it is a brilliant piece of humorous writing in its own right and I would give a great deal to be able to write and communicate as well as that. Furthermore, having worked in both Austria and Germany I've known several native German speakers who are fluent in English and who laughed themselves almost hoarse after I brought it to their attention. They weren't a bit offended by it, they then pointed to the many peculiar idiosyncrasies of English and said that in any competition for same then English would likely be the winner. (BTW, you'll even find native German speakers reading The Awful German Language on Project Gutenberg.) Moreover, I learned more about the German language from Twain's writing than I ever did from the equivalent number of words in any German language textbook written in English. Clearly, I cannot do justice in the space or time available but let me mention a few instances. "These things are called "separable verbs." The German grammar is blistered all over with separable verbs; and the wider the two portions of one of them are spread apart, the better the author of the crime is pleased with his performance." The 'REISTE AB'/'departed' example that Twain quotes is both humorous and very memorable: "The trunks being now ready, he DE- after kissing his mother <...> <...> ...more dearly than life itself, PARTED." After reading this it's almost impossible for someone who is learning the language to ever let separable verbs pass them by without noticing them. "These things are not words, they are alphabetical processions." Of course, they are. And as Twain points out they also possess 'perspective'—and many native German speakers would agree with this assessment, in fact some are quite bemused by the fact that their language has the world's longest words. "<...> Of course when one of these grand mountain ranges goes stretching across the printed page, it adorns and ennobles that literary landscape—but at the same time it is a great distress to the new student, for it blocks up his way; he cannot crawl under it, or climb over it, or tunnel through it. So he resorts to the dictionary for help, but there is no help there." Not only is this wonderfully descriptive prose but it's in fact true. To prove the point, here are a few more that are not included in Twain's text: Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän Betäubungsmittelverschreibungsverordnung Bezirksschornsteinfegermeister Donaudampfschiffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft Whew, that's 79 or 80 letters depending on which spelling one uses. "One cannot overestimate the usefulness of SCHLAG and ZUG." That's very true, and so are very useful (and somewhat tiny) words such as zu, bis and nach — that is, once one gets to understand their German nuances (initially their usage can be confusing—at least I found them to be so given that to, till and until in English are used in a somewhat less prescriptive way. "The Germans do not seem to be afraid to repeat a word when it is the right one. They repeat it several times, if they choose." Until I read this passage, it was never evident to me that we native English speakers actually go out of our way to avoid word repetition. "In the daybeforeyesterdayshortlyaftereleveno'clock Night, the inthistownstandingtavern called 'The Wagoner' was downburnt. When the fire to the onthedownburninghouseresting Stork's Nest reached, flew the parent Storks away. But when the bytheraging, firesurrounded Nest ITSELF caught Fire, straightway plunged the quickreturning Mother-Stork into the Flames and died, her Wings over her young ones outspread." Even the cumbersome German construction is not able to take the pathos out of that picture--indeed, it somehow seems to strengthen it. This item is dated away back yonder months ago. I could have used it sooner, but I was waiting to hear from the Father-stork. I am still waiting. There are some German words which are singularly and powerfully effective. For instance, those which describe lowly, peaceful, and affectionate home life; those which deal with love, in any and all forms, from mere kindly feeling and honest good will toward the passing stranger, clear up to courtship; those which deal with outdoor Nature, in its softest and loveliest aspects—with meadows and forests, and birds and flowers, the fragrance and sunshine of summer, and the moonlight of peaceful winter nights; in a word, those which deal with any and all forms of rest, repose, and peace; those also which deal with the creatures and marvels of fairyland; and lastly and chiefly, in those words which express pathos, is the language surpassingly rich and affective. There are German songs which can make a stranger to the language cry. That shows that the sound of the words is correct—it interprets the meanings with truth and with exactness; and so the ear is informed, and through the ear, the heart." With these wonderfully perceptive words, Twain not only shows us what a master he is at conveying his message but also that he is an acute observer of human nature. It is also indicative that his knowledge and fluency of German is higher than one may gather at first glance. Here, I can attest to the validity of what Twain says in respect of these German words. For instance, Schubert's remarkable song cycles Die schöne Müllerin (The Fair Maid of the Mill) and Die Winterreise ([the] Winter Journey) often reduce me to tears. Also, I find the pathos and heartfelt meaning of these words abundantly evident whenever I wander though a German Friedhof (cemetery). These powerful and yet unusually simple German words stare back from nearly every Grabstein if so as to remind one of one's own mortality.

DFHippie 5y ago

You should work "lough" in there somewhere. It has a completely different pronunciation.

pezezin 5y ago

> You know how to spell a word from the way it sounds. Spanish is my mother language, and actually it's the opposite way: given a written word, there is only one obvious way to read it (except for loanwords and a few words that keep old spellings like "México"), but given a spoken word, it may be written in two different ways (e.g. vaca/baca, kilo/quilo), or it may have a silent H ("ahí hay un hombre que dice ay"). The orthography is not fully phonetic, but you are right it's infinitely easier than English. If you want to find languages with an almost perfect phonetic spelling, look at Eastern/Northern European languages with an ortography created in the late 19th or early 20th century.