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The whole survey is fuzzy data of course, it could even be the same people dreading a language as loving it. That’s why I provided the percentage respondents. C

The whole survey is fuzzy data of course, it could even be the same people dreading a language as loving it. That’s why I provided the percentage respondents. Citing either one as the value of a language is of course dubious, but if we’re acknowledging one metric we may as well acknowledge the other.

morelisp 5y ago
> it could even be the same people dreading a language as loving it Are they not literally inverses of each other? It's two ways of stating the same number, not something you can take as two data points.
- ironmagma 5y ago
  The survey doesn’t say how the data was collected, but there has to at least be a middle “neutral” option because the two numbers don’t always add to 100%. Semantically they are opposites, but so are love and hate, and we know that a person can love and hate another person at the same time, or so the songs tell us.
  - morelisp 5y ago
    They do always add up to 100%.
    - ironmagma 5y ago
      I think you’re right, it was confusing because sometimes it was only to 99% but that’s probably rounding. Disappointing and a poor survey methodology or at least poor presentation. There are definitely some languages I both love and dread, like Java and it would be nice to see those as separate metrics.
tptacek 5y ago
It would be one thing if Go was one of the top 5 most loved and one of the top 5 most dreaded languages. That would suggest (imperfectly, but meaningfully) that it was a polarizing language. But it's the #21st most dreaded language; it is less dreaded than Julia, which is a pure enthusiast language. Your data point actually doesn't show anything. I think you'd be on rhetorically surer footing just arguing that these surveys don't mean anything. The fact of the matter is that while Go certainly has a squadron of haters on message boards (it made several design decisions that were almost precision-targeted to alienate PL connoisseurs), huge numbers of working programmers really like Go. It's silly to argue that isn't true.
- ironmagma 5y ago
  It is looking like I was wrong about the dreaded metric and that it’s actually just an inverse. If so, I have a strong disagreement with the way this data was collected. That said, what matters is the actual qualities of a language rather than how popular it is.
  - morelisp 5y ago
    Geez, just take the L.
    - ironmagma 5y ago
      Like I said previously, citing any of these values to prove a point is dubious. That said I have retracted my top level comment and admitted that my analysis is wrong. What more do you want?
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        Props for admitting your error, but falling back to “there must be a problem with the way the data was collected (because it contradicts my priors)” isn’t particularly admirable.
        ironmagma 5y ago
        It's pretty ridiculous that in order to be in the clear I would have to agree with the way the survey was conducted and presented when it obviously causes confusion, but okay.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        No one suggested you have to agree with the survey’s methodology. It’s one thing to identify specific problems with the survey and quite another thing to cite the survey yourself, then when your argument is rebutted, to argue that there must be something methodologically wrong with the survey.

morelisp 5y ago

> it could even be the same people dreading a language as loving it Are they not literally inverses of each other? It's two ways of stating the same number, not something you can take as two data points.

ironmagma 5y ago
The survey doesn’t say how the data was collected, but there has to at least be a middle “neutral” option because the two numbers don’t always add to 100%. Semantically they are opposites, but so are love and hate, and we know that a person can love and hate another person at the same time, or so the songs tell us.
- morelisp 5y ago
  They do always add up to 100%.
  - ironmagma 5y ago
    I think you’re right, it was confusing because sometimes it was only to 99% but that’s probably rounding. Disappointing and a poor survey methodology or at least poor presentation. There are definitely some languages I both love and dread, like Java and it would be nice to see those as separate metrics.

tptacek 5y ago

It would be one thing if Go was one of the top 5 most loved and one of the top 5 most dreaded languages. That would suggest (imperfectly, but meaningfully) that it was a polarizing language. But it's the #21st most dreaded language; it is less dreaded than Julia, which is a pure enthusiast language. Your data point actually doesn't show anything. I think you'd be on rhetorically surer footing just arguing that these surveys don't mean anything. The fact of the matter is that while Go certainly has a squadron of haters on message boards (it made several design decisions that were almost precision-targeted to alienate PL connoisseurs), huge numbers of working programmers really like Go. It's silly to argue that isn't true.

ironmagma 5y ago
It is looking like I was wrong about the dreaded metric and that it’s actually just an inverse. If so, I have a strong disagreement with the way this data was collected. That said, what matters is the actual qualities of a language rather than how popular it is.
- morelisp 5y ago
  Geez, just take the L.
  - ironmagma 5y ago
    Like I said previously, citing any of these values to prove a point is dubious. That said I have retracted my top level comment and admitted that my analysis is wrong. What more do you want?
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      Props for admitting your error, but falling back to “there must be a problem with the way the data was collected (because it contradicts my priors)” isn’t particularly admirable.
      - ironmagma 5y ago
        It's pretty ridiculous that in order to be in the clear I would have to agree with the way the survey was conducted and presented when it obviously causes confusion, but okay.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        No one suggested you have to agree with the survey’s methodology. It’s one thing to identify specific problems with the survey and quite another thing to cite the survey yourself, then when your argument is rebutted, to argue that there must be something methodologically wrong with the survey.