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The same observations are made on container deposits and recycling rates in the USA. There are 10 states in the United States with container deposit legislatio

The same observations are made on container deposits and recycling rates in the USA. There are 10 states in the United States with container deposit legislation. The US overall container recycling rate is ~ 33%, while states with a $0.05 container deposit laws have a ~70% average rate of container recycling. Michigan is over 90% as its deposit is $0.10. So why don’t more states have “bottle bills?” Because Coke, Pepsi, and the beverage industry oppose it https://www.industryweek.com/the-economy/regulations/article/22008100/why-are-there-so-few-states-with-bottle-bill-laws https://www.industryweek.com/the-economy/regulations/article...

JCharante 5y ago
Growing up in a state with container deposits (ME) I'm shocked that it's not a nationwide program. I guess that's why the bottles always list states where it's redeemable. I wonder how the lobbying didn't prevent this in the ten states.
- jay_kyburz 5y ago
  Government that works.
oh_sigh 5y ago
Do those recycling numbers take into account the number of people who don't pay a deposit, but get a deposit back? IE people buying sodas in Ohio and then taking them to Michigan to redeem a deposit?
- EvanAnderson 5y ago
  The containers are marked with a Michigan deposit logo, assuming anybody looks.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    Yes - when a person buys a bottle in Michigan, 10 cents is added to the cost. When they return the bottle to Michigan, 10 cents is given to them. However, when a person buys a bottle in Ohio, 0 cents is added to the cost. And they can't return the bottle anywhere in Ohio for any money. However, they can return the bottle in Michigan for 10 cents, even though they never paid the deposit in the first place. So in that sense, naively doing (bottles returned)/(bottles sold) to determine the recycling rate of a state is wrong, because people will return bottles that were never sold in the state to begin with. So it would literally be possible to have a >100% recycling rate which doesn't make any sense.
Ayesh 5y ago
~70% for a $0.05 is pretty good. In Germany, it's around €0.40, and IIRC, has a 90% recycle rate.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  I guess just like Germany, poor people also collect the bottles for the $0.05? There was a program where a city gave people money in exchange for cigarette butts. Obviously the poor people collected the butts.
  - jackjeff 5y ago
    Typically homeless people would collect them in places where returning the bottles was impractical. Trains stations are a good example. I remember many people would also leave the bottles on top of the bin rather than tossing them inside, to make it easier for them. I lived a few years in Germany about 10yrs ago, and took a lot of trains (ICE). I miss those nice thick bottles. Much better than the flimsy ones we have in the UK and the whole redeeming of the bottles while doing your shopping was kind of fun.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  > In Germany, it's around €0.40 I thought the deposit on single-use bottles/cans is (exactly) EUR 0.25, with significantly lower deposits for reusable bottles. Interestingly, Switzerland has a high recycling rate for PET despite not having any deposit.
  - krrrh 5y ago
    Switzerland is also the only country I’ve visited where everyone knew what PET is and could identify it from 20 paces. I remember going to a movie theatre and naively wondering if the dedicated PET bins had something to do with dogs.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
      Those bins are also exclusively for PET bottles, no other PET.
RhysU 5y ago
How often is the consumer who fronts the nickel the person redeeming the nickel? I suspect the nickels are, in aggregate, a regressive tax. I have no data, however, to back that claim.
- kevinventullo 5y ago
  What makes you think that? In states with the nickel redemption, I’ve often seen homeless people collecting cans and bottles to return. This makes me suspect the average redeemer has less money than the average fronter.
  - RhysU 5y ago
    I would be willing to bet that the 99% pays at least 99% of those nickels and the 1% pays at most 1% of them. I would consider those nickels regressive if most of them come from the lower half of economic distribution even if they all end up in the hands of the homeless.
    - jjeaff 5y ago
      But is a regressive tax bad if it is taxing something bad? (i.e. sugary drinks)
      - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
        Diet drinks, unsweetened ice tea etc all pay the tax.
        jjeaff 5y ago
        All just about as unhealthy.
- BurritoAlPastor 5y ago
  As a native Californian, I’ve never redeemed a CRV in my life, and I’m not sure anybody I know does, either. The prospect of not putting recycling in the recycling bin so I can have another errand in my life is remarkably unappealing, especially given that I’d make less than a dollar a month for doing so. There’s a certain amount of people rummaging through the bins on trash night, but only in urban areas, and they can’t be that thorough. I imagine that most of our recycling rate comes from ubiquitous curbside recycling programs, and the CRV goes to the waste management companies, who just keep it as profit.
walrus01 5y ago
> Michigan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bottle_Deposit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bottle_Deposit
m463 5y ago
There are weird externalities though. Specifically homeless people. They all become deposit bottle entrepreneurs. They will often go places they probably shouldn't go and rifle through people's dumpsters and trash cans. I'm not sure what to think.
- ericbarrett 5y ago
  When I lived in SF, people would break into our condo's private area just to rifle through the trash and recycling.
- photojosh 5y ago
  It came in for my state only a few years back. We returned ours a few times, but the novelty quickly wears off and it is really not worth the time. Now I just leave them sorted in a cardboard box out on the curb on our recycling collection day and they vanish pretty quickly due to the efforts of said deposit bottle entrepreneurs.
  - brewdad 5y ago
    If you want to make dealing with the cans and bottles someone else's problem but also avoid encouraging the curbside "entrepreneurs" check to see if any local youth organizations do can drives in your area. My kid's marching band program (in Oregon) collects over $10,000 a year from beverage deposits. It provides about 15% of their total funding for the year. They collect them once a month and will even pick them up from you if driving them to the school is inconvenient. There are dozens of organizations in our area doing the same thing.
    - labawi 5y ago
      What's wrong with employing curbside "enterpreneurs"? Would you be happier if they were begging on the streets, stealing, went hungry.. Over here, some enterprising souls tend to "acquire" (often steal) copper cabling, burn the insulation (regularly poisoning the neighborhood) and sell the remaining copper. I don't see why you would mind people collecting discarded bottles to return for recycling. On another point, I don't think people go homeless in pursuit of bottle enterprises.
laurencerowe 5y ago
California has container deposits but as a consumer they’re impossible to get refunded. So while in Germany and Norway you’d take your bottles and cans back to the supermarket to return for credit, in CA we put them in the recycling bin and homeless folks come along and empty your recycling bins on bin night to collect any bottles and cans which they then sell to a middleman with a truck who sells them back to the one deposit return location in the city that will accept them.
- URSpider94 5y ago
  Why do you say impossible? I can take them to my local recycling center which is open 9-5 every day of the year except Christmas, New Years Day and Thanksgiving, and they will gladly pay me back the deposit.
  - laurencerowe 5y ago
    Impossible is too strong a word, but it's not very practical and at 5c a container not worthwhile to make a special trip to the single recycling centre in SF. Compare to Germany/Norway where the deposit is ~25c a container and you can just take them back to the supermarket. Apparently retailers are obligated to refund CRV in CA but they just ignore the regulation: https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2021/05/03/ca-lawmaker-proposes-bill-to-make-getting-a-crv-refund-easier-for-recyclers/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2021/05/03/ca-lawmaker-pro...
    - URSpider94 5y ago
      This is something that’s much easier in the suburbs - if I wanted to, I could stash three giant trash bags in my garage, eventually toss them in my minivan and drive the 5 miles to the recycling center, which is about the same as my ordinary commute. I can imagine that that’s basically impossible to do if you live in SF.

JCharante 5y ago

Growing up in a state with container deposits (ME) I'm shocked that it's not a nationwide program. I guess that's why the bottles always list states where it's redeemable. I wonder how the lobbying didn't prevent this in the ten states.

jay_kyburz 5y ago
Government that works.

oh_sigh 5y ago

Do those recycling numbers take into account the number of people who don't pay a deposit, but get a deposit back? IE people buying sodas in Ohio and then taking them to Michigan to redeem a deposit?

EvanAnderson 5y ago
The containers are marked with a Michigan deposit logo, assuming anybody looks.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Yes - when a person buys a bottle in Michigan, 10 cents is added to the cost. When they return the bottle to Michigan, 10 cents is given to them. However, when a person buys a bottle in Ohio, 0 cents is added to the cost. And they can't return the bottle anywhere in Ohio for any money. However, they can return the bottle in Michigan for 10 cents, even though they never paid the deposit in the first place. So in that sense, naively doing (bottles returned)/(bottles sold) to determine the recycling rate of a state is wrong, because people will return bottles that were never sold in the state to begin with. So it would literally be possible to have a >100% recycling rate which doesn't make any sense.

Ayesh 5y ago

~70% for a $0.05 is pretty good. In Germany, it's around €0.40, and IIRC, has a 90% recycle rate.

bellyfullofbac 5y ago
I guess just like Germany, poor people also collect the bottles for the $0.05? There was a program where a city gave people money in exchange for cigarette butts. Obviously the poor people collected the butts.
- jackjeff 5y ago
  Typically homeless people would collect them in places where returning the bottles was impractical. Trains stations are a good example. I remember many people would also leave the bottles on top of the bin rather than tossing them inside, to make it easier for them. I lived a few years in Germany about 10yrs ago, and took a lot of trains (ICE). I miss those nice thick bottles. Much better than the flimsy ones we have in the UK and the whole redeeming of the bottles while doing your shopping was kind of fun.
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
> In Germany, it's around €0.40 I thought the deposit on single-use bottles/cans is (exactly) EUR 0.25, with significantly lower deposits for reusable bottles. Interestingly, Switzerland has a high recycling rate for PET despite not having any deposit.
- krrrh 5y ago
  Switzerland is also the only country I’ve visited where everyone knew what PET is and could identify it from 20 paces. I remember going to a movie theatre and naively wondering if the dedicated PET bins had something to do with dogs.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
    Those bins are also exclusively for PET bottles, no other PET.

RhysU 5y ago

How often is the consumer who fronts the nickel the person redeeming the nickel? I suspect the nickels are, in aggregate, a regressive tax. I have no data, however, to back that claim.

kevinventullo 5y ago
What makes you think that? In states with the nickel redemption, I’ve often seen homeless people collecting cans and bottles to return. This makes me suspect the average redeemer has less money than the average fronter.
- RhysU 5y ago
  I would be willing to bet that the 99% pays at least 99% of those nickels and the 1% pays at most 1% of them. I would consider those nickels regressive if most of them come from the lower half of economic distribution even if they all end up in the hands of the homeless.
  - jjeaff 5y ago
    But is a regressive tax bad if it is taxing something bad? (i.e. sugary drinks)
    - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
      Diet drinks, unsweetened ice tea etc all pay the tax.
      - jjeaff 5y ago
        All just about as unhealthy.
BurritoAlPastor 5y ago
As a native Californian, I’ve never redeemed a CRV in my life, and I’m not sure anybody I know does, either. The prospect of not putting recycling in the recycling bin so I can have another errand in my life is remarkably unappealing, especially given that I’d make less than a dollar a month for doing so. There’s a certain amount of people rummaging through the bins on trash night, but only in urban areas, and they can’t be that thorough. I imagine that most of our recycling rate comes from ubiquitous curbside recycling programs, and the CRV goes to the waste management companies, who just keep it as profit.

walrus01 5y ago

> Michigan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bottle_Deposit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bottle_Deposit

m463 5y ago

There are weird externalities though. Specifically homeless people. They all become deposit bottle entrepreneurs. They will often go places they probably shouldn't go and rifle through people's dumpsters and trash cans. I'm not sure what to think.

ericbarrett 5y ago
When I lived in SF, people would break into our condo's private area just to rifle through the trash and recycling.
photojosh 5y ago
It came in for my state only a few years back. We returned ours a few times, but the novelty quickly wears off and it is really not worth the time. Now I just leave them sorted in a cardboard box out on the curb on our recycling collection day and they vanish pretty quickly due to the efforts of said deposit bottle entrepreneurs.
- brewdad 5y ago
  If you want to make dealing with the cans and bottles someone else's problem but also avoid encouraging the curbside "entrepreneurs" check to see if any local youth organizations do can drives in your area. My kid's marching band program (in Oregon) collects over $10,000 a year from beverage deposits. It provides about 15% of their total funding for the year. They collect them once a month and will even pick them up from you if driving them to the school is inconvenient. There are dozens of organizations in our area doing the same thing.
  - labawi 5y ago
    What's wrong with employing curbside "enterpreneurs"? Would you be happier if they were begging on the streets, stealing, went hungry.. Over here, some enterprising souls tend to "acquire" (often steal) copper cabling, burn the insulation (regularly poisoning the neighborhood) and sell the remaining copper. I don't see why you would mind people collecting discarded bottles to return for recycling. On another point, I don't think people go homeless in pursuit of bottle enterprises.

laurencerowe 5y ago

California has container deposits but as a consumer they’re impossible to get refunded. So while in Germany and Norway you’d take your bottles and cans back to the supermarket to return for credit, in CA we put them in the recycling bin and homeless folks come along and empty your recycling bins on bin night to collect any bottles and cans which they then sell to a middleman with a truck who sells them back to the one deposit return location in the city that will accept them.

URSpider94 5y ago
Why do you say impossible? I can take them to my local recycling center which is open 9-5 every day of the year except Christmas, New Years Day and Thanksgiving, and they will gladly pay me back the deposit.
- laurencerowe 5y ago
  Impossible is too strong a word, but it's not very practical and at 5c a container not worthwhile to make a special trip to the single recycling centre in SF. Compare to Germany/Norway where the deposit is ~25c a container and you can just take them back to the supermarket. Apparently retailers are obligated to refund CRV in CA but they just ignore the regulation: https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2021/05/03/ca-lawmaker-proposes-bill-to-make-getting-a-crv-refund-easier-for-recyclers/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2021/05/03/ca-lawmaker-pro...
  - URSpider94 5y ago
    This is something that’s much easier in the suburbs - if I wanted to, I could stash three giant trash bags in my garage, eventually toss them in my minivan and drive the 5 miles to the recycling center, which is about the same as my ordinary commute. I can imagine that that’s basically impossible to do if you live in SF.