4 ms·

In a city, yes. In a suburb, the solution isn't anything except building more and better roads. People aren't bicycling 10-15 miles to the grocery. They shou

In a city, yes. In a suburb, the solution isn't anything except building more and better roads. People aren't bicycling 10-15 miles to the grocery. They should be, but, that's a different societal problem.

oscardssmith 5y ago
In suburbs, we shouldn't have grocery stores be that far from people.
- OwlsParlay 5y ago
  Welcome to American zoning laws, sadly.
adamjb 5y ago
...are there really places in the US that are considered suburbs where the nearest place to get groceries is 10-15 miles away? That's appalling.
- other_herbert 5y ago
  I think most people would call that “the middle of nowhere” or out in the boonies... or it could be a new area that is growing.. 15 miles from groceries is too far to be called a suburb
  - masklinn 5y ago
    > I think most people would call that “the middle of nowhere” or out in the boonies... Not in the US. In the US "in the middle of nowhere" is grocery runs of 50+ miles. 15 miles is a "far out" suburbian hellscape e.g. https://i1.wp.com/cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1080/1*AEfVhyvwGyqDmnZcAQfIGg.png?resize=398%2C264&ssl=1 https://i1.wp.com/cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1080/1*AEfVhyv... or https://bostonglobe-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/h2N-h_4kbaMMps_4ou05IwXb6tM=/1024x0/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-bostonglobe.s3.amazonaws.com/public/Z4IGXQBGAII6HALMQUI2U2GARA.jpg https://bostonglobe-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/h2N-h...
- dazc 5y ago
  It does sound appaling but, here in the UK, my dad lives in a fairly large city and, once a week, I drive him to the largest supermarket in the area which is about 10 miles away. There are, of course, other supermarkets much closer (2 within walking distance) but they are not quite so big, have a limited choice and are situated in areas which attract a certain class of clientel (known in the UK as Chavs). For him, the inconvenience is worth it - although it does take 3 hours out of my day.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - iso1210 5y ago
    So your dad will only shop at Sainsburys despite having an Asda on the doorstep? I don't get going to a supermarket at all. We've had groceries delivered once or twice a week from Sainsburys, Ocada, Tesco, Asda, etc for about 10 years. The concept of walking around a supermarket on a regular basis fills me with dread - all that wasted time and effort.
    - dazc 5y ago
      I agree with the wasted effort, compounded by having to navigate ailes populated with internet-order-pickers, but it keeps him happy.
- masklinn 5y ago
  Lots. e.g. I took a random Tucson suburb and looked for the closest grocery store: https://www.google.be/maps/dir/32.3863674,-111.0376983/Grocery+Walmart,+North+Cortaro+Road,+Tucson,+AZ,+USA/@32.3541036,-111.039729,6746m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!4m7!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x86d60baf3b7f7883:0x2e63416802b027e8!2m2!1d-111.0894464!2d32.3562615 https://www.google.be/maps/dir/32.3863674,-111.0376983/Groce... Apparently you can't just put a generic "grocery" as the destination, but if you search for "grocery" and check different results, you'll get 10-15mn for all of them. That's pretty standard US suburban sprawl, usually under the insanity that is euclidean zoning: entire neighbourhoods zoned exclusively for detached single-family homes, not allowing any business (no bakery, grocery store, florist, no nothing) and no multi-family dwellings.
  - AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
    Ten minutes away is not ten miles away. In fact, there are multiple grocery stores within 3-4 miles of the location you chose. https://www.google.be/maps/search/grocery+store/@32.3769377,-111.0588692,8479m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m8!2m7!3m6!1sgrocery+store!2s3300+W+Desert+Bend+Loop,+Tucson,+AZ+85742!3s0x86d60ba9b1608d8f:0xb6a576b01fda13bf!4m2!1d-111.0374948!2d32.3865477 https://www.google.be/maps/search/grocery+store/@32.3769377,...
jltsiren 5y ago
Better transportation also creates trips that would otherwise not exist at all. For example, people go grocery shopping more often and buy less on each trip. Or they decide to go to the office one more time each week instead of working from home.
throw0101a 5y ago
One of the better definitions of sprawl that I've come across: when residential areas are not with-in walking distance† of commercial areas. †5-10 minutes (?).
ben_w 5y ago
Alternative solution: different zoning rules. When I lived in a tiny Cambridge commuter village 30-minute cycle out from where I worked, the local grocery store was closer to me than one corner of Milton Tesco car park is from its opposite. Here in Berlin? First place I stayed, out in the suburbs, the basics were a bit further — 300m for a bakery — but there were also seven supermarkets within 1 km.
paulgb 5y ago
The very existence of suburbs where the closest grocery is 10+ miles away is itself an example of DC-3s generalization. Instead of cars making trips within cities faster, we started tolerating the same commute but spreading cities out more.
Cola 5y ago
The solution is to make suburbs more dense so that people are closer to the places they want to go. I suppose this would ultimately result in a “town” rather than a suburb, though.
iso1210 5y ago
I can't remember the last time I went to the grocery store, and that's not just covid.
jellicle 5y ago
Your little subdivision that replaced a farm should have a commercial center that you can walk to.
masklinn 5y ago
> In a suburb, the solution isn't anything except building more and better roads. That's not a solution. Suburbs are self-bankrupting by definition: they're so sparse the taxes can't cover the infrastructure cost. The solution is to relax zoning and make the suburb denser and liveable. Removing and narrowing roads is a good way to do that: it increases space available for non-car infrastructures and produces free surface for "neighbourhood businesses". It also naturally routes through traffic around the area, rather than having to force that through inconvenient culs-de-sacs and making the suburb into a maze which requires driving 10 minutes to go to the neighbor's house.

oscardssmith 5y ago

In suburbs, we shouldn't have grocery stores be that far from people.

OwlsParlay 5y ago
Welcome to American zoning laws, sadly.

adamjb 5y ago

...are there really places in the US that are considered suburbs where the nearest place to get groceries is 10-15 miles away? That's appalling.

other_herbert 5y ago
I think most people would call that “the middle of nowhere” or out in the boonies... or it could be a new area that is growing.. 15 miles from groceries is too far to be called a suburb
- masklinn 5y ago
  > I think most people would call that “the middle of nowhere” or out in the boonies... Not in the US. In the US "in the middle of nowhere" is grocery runs of 50+ miles. 15 miles is a "far out" suburbian hellscape e.g. https://i1.wp.com/cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1080/1*AEfVhyvwGyqDmnZcAQfIGg.png?resize=398%2C264&ssl=1 https://i1.wp.com/cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1080/1*AEfVhyv... or https://bostonglobe-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/h2N-h_4kbaMMps_4ou05IwXb6tM=/1024x0/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-bostonglobe.s3.amazonaws.com/public/Z4IGXQBGAII6HALMQUI2U2GARA.jpg https://bostonglobe-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/h2N-h...
dazc 5y ago
It does sound appaling but, here in the UK, my dad lives in a fairly large city and, once a week, I drive him to the largest supermarket in the area which is about 10 miles away. There are, of course, other supermarkets much closer (2 within walking distance) but they are not quite so big, have a limited choice and are situated in areas which attract a certain class of clientel (known in the UK as Chavs). For him, the inconvenience is worth it - although it does take 3 hours out of my day.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- iso1210 5y ago
  So your dad will only shop at Sainsburys despite having an Asda on the doorstep? I don't get going to a supermarket at all. We've had groceries delivered once or twice a week from Sainsburys, Ocada, Tesco, Asda, etc for about 10 years. The concept of walking around a supermarket on a regular basis fills me with dread - all that wasted time and effort.
  - dazc 5y ago
    I agree with the wasted effort, compounded by having to navigate ailes populated with internet-order-pickers, but it keeps him happy.
masklinn 5y ago
Lots. e.g. I took a random Tucson suburb and looked for the closest grocery store: https://www.google.be/maps/dir/32.3863674,-111.0376983/Grocery+Walmart,+North+Cortaro+Road,+Tucson,+AZ,+USA/@32.3541036,-111.039729,6746m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!4m7!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x86d60baf3b7f7883:0x2e63416802b027e8!2m2!1d-111.0894464!2d32.3562615 https://www.google.be/maps/dir/32.3863674,-111.0376983/Groce... Apparently you can't just put a generic "grocery" as the destination, but if you search for "grocery" and check different results, you'll get 10-15mn for all of them. That's pretty standard US suburban sprawl, usually under the insanity that is euclidean zoning: entire neighbourhoods zoned exclusively for detached single-family homes, not allowing any business (no bakery, grocery store, florist, no nothing) and no multi-family dwellings.
- AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
  Ten minutes away is not ten miles away. In fact, there are multiple grocery stores within 3-4 miles of the location you chose. https://www.google.be/maps/search/grocery+store/@32.3769377,-111.0588692,8479m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m8!2m7!3m6!1sgrocery+store!2s3300+W+Desert+Bend+Loop,+Tucson,+AZ+85742!3s0x86d60ba9b1608d8f:0xb6a576b01fda13bf!4m2!1d-111.0374948!2d32.3865477 https://www.google.be/maps/search/grocery+store/@32.3769377,...

jltsiren 5y ago

Better transportation also creates trips that would otherwise not exist at all. For example, people go grocery shopping more often and buy less on each trip. Or they decide to go to the office one more time each week instead of working from home.

throw0101a 5y ago

One of the better definitions of sprawl that I've come across: when residential areas are not with-in walking distance† of commercial areas. †5-10 minutes (?).

ben_w 5y ago

Alternative solution: different zoning rules. When I lived in a tiny Cambridge commuter village 30-minute cycle out from where I worked, the local grocery store was closer to me than one corner of Milton Tesco car park is from its opposite. Here in Berlin? First place I stayed, out in the suburbs, the basics were a bit further — 300m for a bakery — but there were also seven supermarkets within 1 km.

paulgb 5y ago

The very existence of suburbs where the closest grocery is 10+ miles away is itself an example of DC-3s generalization. Instead of cars making trips within cities faster, we started tolerating the same commute but spreading cities out more.

Cola 5y ago

The solution is to make suburbs more dense so that people are closer to the places they want to go. I suppose this would ultimately result in a “town” rather than a suburb, though.

iso1210 5y ago

I can't remember the last time I went to the grocery store, and that's not just covid.

jellicle 5y ago

Your little subdivision that replaced a farm should have a commercial center that you can walk to.

masklinn 5y ago

> In a suburb, the solution isn't anything except building more and better roads. That's not a solution. Suburbs are self-bankrupting by definition: they're so sparse the taxes can't cover the infrastructure cost. The solution is to relax zoning and make the suburb denser and liveable. Removing and narrowing roads is a good way to do that: it increases space available for non-car infrastructures and produces free surface for "neighbourhood businesses". It also naturally routes through traffic around the area, rather than having to force that through inconvenient culs-de-sacs and making the suburb into a maze which requires driving 10 minutes to go to the neighbor's house.