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Introverts can make good leaders but too often these "introverts are great" articles are pointed to by those who just want an excuse for their poor social skill

Introverts can make good leaders but too often these "introverts are great" articles are pointed to by those who just want an excuse for their poor social skills and lack of impact. Case in point, my last boss was a visible, forceful woman who emphasized relationship building. It took me a year to learn she actually is heavily introverted and spends her weekends not talking to anyone. She was an effective introverted leader but she was also just an effective leader, period. It wouldn't occur to her to share this article. On the other hand, plentny of low impact people believe they have great ideas but they aren't able to articulate them to get any traction or even feedback. Rather than learning how to handle these situations, they chalk up their ineptitude to introversion. That's the kind of people I find takes comfort in these articles.

NikolaNovak 5y ago
Different people have wildly different definition of introvert vs extrovert as well. I find that "gets energy from interaction vs lose energy from interaction" is more productive than "shy vs loud". I was visibly shy for first two decades of my life; I look (and am) a "people person" for the last two decades and most recent friends/colleagues wouldn't know I'm an introvert; and I'm doing reasonably well in people-manager role. But whereas after a hard day my sister wants to go out and party and this will rejuvenate her, after a hard day I want... nay, need, some "me time" - alone with book or computer or tv or music to recharge. I'm stereotypically the first person to leave a party of my best friends - I love them, I love our time together, but at some point I had enough input and need to depart. My point is: I think "introvert" is a defining characteristic of me; but "have people skills" is just that - skills. I don't think I'll ever change whether I gain or lose energy from social interactions; that seems a pretty built-in aspect of my personality. But I can and did tremendously change how I actually interact with people - it may come easy to some, harder to others, and seemingly impossible to yet others, but it is in principle a learnable, acquirable skill. So, "6% of Business executives think introverts have people skills needed" makes me think this is an accidentally tautology - I'm pretty sure they mentally have defined "introverts" as "those with poor people skills", and that's not I think the most accurate definition.
- galangalalgol 5y ago
  My wife and I are both introverted, but people often don't believe that, especially with her. But after a party, or an event we are both exhausted. For me at least I think it comes from the effort I have to use to model the mental state of others. It does not come naturally.
  - Biologist123 5y ago
    Fascinating insight.
  - wiz21c 5y ago
    I understand what you say 5/5. I spend a lot of energy trying my best to understand others, to go beyond their facade, to ask about thing I disagree with, etc. Also, I have hard times when people judge or mock me (even if done in friendly way), etc. I hardly pass over it so, again, takes some energy.
  - neonological 5y ago
    It's more complicated then introversion or extroversion. You are describing high empathy and fear of not pleasing others. You act a certain way to cater to other people and possibly spend way too much energy on it, hence the exhaustion. Most people aren't constantly modelling the mental state of others. You don't need to be in a constant state of anticipating the emotions of the other party when talking to them. Just talk. Don't spend too many cycles overly concerned about what others think.
    - galangalalgol 5y ago
      I tend to be rude, insensitive, or even offensive if I don't run a background process to prevent it. I don't want to hurt people's feelings, it just happens because I think differently, so my instinctual model for reasonable speech is different too. Those things I say wouldn't offend me for instance. After people get to know me and understand I can mostly turn it off and they will forgive. Strangers, or clients, I keep it running.
weasel_words 5y ago
Perhaps...but then you've mis-categorized the person as an introvert when they are actually socially awkward or, as you say, they have: "...poor social skills and lack of impact." There are both introverts and extroverts who have "poor social skills and lack of impact". Noisy extroverts who don't know when to stop talking is one example off the top of my head.
JI00912 5y ago
I think we just witnessed a murder.
kodah 5y ago
Is there any actual correlation between low social skills and introversion or is this just something people like to whack introverted people over the head with? In my own experience I've witnessed people, in general, who struggle to communicate or communicate effectively. I've also witnessed people who over communicate or dominate communication and are equally destructive. There's also something else I've noticed, which is that leaders are often perceived as effective when they're leading people whom their leadership style is compatible with.
- plutonorm 5y ago
  Perhaps, but only because the introverts have been beaten over the head repeatedly by the extrovert dominated culture. A socially intelligent introvert looks like a councillor, adept at understanding people in one on one situations, able to bring out the best in people.
- groby_b 5y ago
  > There's also something else I've noticed, which is that leaders are often perceived as effective when they're leading people whom their leadership style is compatible with. Puts the finger right on the important spot. People "get" you more if you relate to them in a familiar way. Which means that being an effective leader requires stuffing your "but I'm an X" ideas, and adapting to the people you're leading. (Step 2 is teaching them to adapt as well - it's not about permanently disguising yourself)
- Viliam1234 5y ago
  I would expect that one develops skills mostly by practicing, and extraverts typically get more practice with social interaction, simply because that is how they enjoy spending their free time. On the other hand, introverts may compensate e.g. by reading literature on social skills, or spend more time reflecting on what happened; and unless they are isolated, after a few decades they also get lot of experience. While extraverts may get stuck in the "high-school style of human interaction" and have difficulty move forward. Overall, I would guess that an average extravert will be much better than average introvert e.g. at small talk. But if you need a specialist, e.g. a therapist, the chances are more balanced, because for either it requires going beyond just following their instinct. But this is all just a guess. > There's also something else I've noticed, which is that leaders are often perceived as effective when they're leading people whom their leadership style is compatible with. Yep. But imagine that you have ten people in a room, five extraverted and five introverted. The extraverts will create a group in the middle of the room, and introverts will sit alone near the corners. If you randomly pick a leader, you will probably tell them to lead the group in the middle of the room -- and that is a task better suited to an extravert.
plutonorm 5y ago
You are still confusing effective leadership with extroversion. One on one relationship building is something that introverts excel at.
- xyzelement 5y ago
  I am? I am citing a deep introvert who richly invested in developing that skill. You make it sound like introversion is a disability rather than a default orientation.
  - plutonorm 5y ago
    No, you are saying that you cannot be an effective leader using an introverted style. It is not necessary to run around hustling relationships in an extravert way in order to be effective. An introvert leader at their peak looks like the patrician from Terry Pratchet, Havelock Vetinari. He doesn't spin around burning energy building countless relationships, but understand the motion of people well enough to influence with out really being seen to influence. Subtle control through deep understanding rather sheer force of will.
- void_mint 5y ago
  > One on one relationship building is something that introverts excel at But...didn't you also just do the same thing? People are good at things they try to be good at. Being an introvert has nothing to do with that, nor does extroversion. Meaning, people that prioritize interpersonal skill and relationship building have the potential to become good leaders, regardless of their particular alignment.
plutonorm 5y ago
This reeks of "Extrovert privilege"
sidlls 5y ago
I find the kind of generalization and meanness in your comment is counterproductive: and also commonly trotted out when justifying the extroversion dominance in organizations. Also: social anxiety and shyness are very real problems that can easily be induced by the shame, ridicule, and lack of acceptance that introversion often is accompanied by. The fact that these things are often equated with “socially inept/incompetent” is extremely problematic.
- xyzelement 5y ago
  No offense but it sounds like you are more interested in being offended than comprehension and evolution. My whole point is that social skills and interaction are just that - skills. You can invest in them if you are introverted or even if you have some social anxiety (as, I suspect, I do.) If someone instead insists that there's nothing for them to learn, that their "badness" with people is a badge of honor in some way, then they just justify being bad at the expense of people around them. But, I guess we can just ignore that, forego the opportunity to improve, because you find it problematic :)
  - sidlls 5y ago
    You’re the one suddenly bringing up an unwillingness to learn. It’s quite telling, too, as the language you used suggests you don’t view these things as medical conditions or disabilities, but instead personal failings to overcome. Also, pointing out meanness in a comment isn’t the same as being offended: it’s quite presumptuous really.
  - yesenadam 5y ago
    When you find yourself starting a comment with "No offense but", perhaps look at why you felt your comment might cause offence. Then rewrite it in a kinder and less mean way that doesn't need a disclaimer. Your comment would have come across better—as trying to help, not trying to mock—without the first and last lines, which seem to break the guidelines.
- watwut 5y ago
  Anxiety and shyness is not the same as introversion. Extroverts have as much anxiety and are shy too. Introverts give public speaches or perform publically. Extroverts can be also socially inept.
blablabla123 5y ago
> Case in point, my last boss was a visible, forceful woman who emphasized relationship building. It took me a year to learn she actually is heavily introverted and spends her weekends not talking to anyone. She was an effective introverted leader but she was also just an effective leader, period. It wouldn't occur to her to share this article. Maybe if workplaces would be more acceptable of introverts she wouldn't have to spend the whole weekend recharging. Indeed this is not the first article making the case for introverts and it is obvious that introverts can act like extroverts and vice-versa. But there is a price to pay, e.g. needing some recharge time. > On the other hand, plentny of low impact people believe they have great ideas but they aren't able to articulate them to get any traction or even feedback. Plenty of high impact people just spill out their ideas and let other people spend many iterations to proof that those are bad ideas. Many introverts come up with excellent ideas and let them speak for themselves. Apart from that one shouldn't forget why people have been hired in the first place. So they bring something to the table and not everything was on the job description or is common knowledge. I wish there was more appreciation for different approaches, also given that almost half of the population is considered introverted.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  One of my former managers ( very much an extrovert ), summarized it to me thusly as he tried to show me his way: "If you turn out to be right, that is great. If not, that is ok too. But it is vital that you remain calm and confident irregardless." And the most fucking annoying thing about his approach is that it works.
  - louthy 5y ago
    > irregardless Did he really use this non-word?
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
      Yep. With full conviction of a person that he will not be corrected by his underlings.
    - 5y ago
dontbeabill 5y ago
maybe they want to avoid dealing with folks with aggressive attitudes like yours, and find life more pleasant dealing with more rational, level headed people or no one.
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
I think you are onto something here. On the other hand, current breed of leadership is primarily full of type A, highly visible, forceful personalities that are, at best, difficult to ignore, but hard to take seriously. But I do like your point about how introversion is used an odd excuse. One of the first videos on the subject in one of my MBA classes was on that ( Susan Cain, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0KYU2j0TM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0KYU2j0TM4 ).
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
Introverts can make good leaders, but it can be difficult. Note I'm using what I feel is the most common definition of introversion/extroversion even if it is somewhat of a "pop" psychology definition, i.e. introverts recharge by quiet time alone, extroverts by being around others. When you are a leader, a huge part of your job is being around other people a lot, and communicating with them, often times having difficult conversations. I'm introverted, I think I have fairly good (or at least OK) social skills and I'm emotionally introspective, I was an engineering director and I think I was pretty good at it. However, it left me feeling completely exhausted. Every day I would come home and basically crash because I was spending a huge portion of my day talking to people. It negatively affected my relationship because it was hard for me to be available to my partner when I was so tired from interacting with other people all day. Contrast this with an extrovert, who actually gets energized by all of those daily interactions. It's very difficult to compete with that behavioral mindset in a job where a majority of work is person-to-person interactions. Not saying my experience is the same across all introverts, just expressing my frustration at a lot of these "introverts have super powers!" type articles that have an underlying message that some jobs (i.e. "leaders") are intrinsically more valuable than others.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

NikolaNovak 5y ago

Different people have wildly different definition of introvert vs extrovert as well. I find that "gets energy from interaction vs lose energy from interaction" is more productive than "shy vs loud". I was visibly shy for first two decades of my life; I look (and am) a "people person" for the last two decades and most recent friends/colleagues wouldn't know I'm an introvert; and I'm doing reasonably well in people-manager role. But whereas after a hard day my sister wants to go out and party and this will rejuvenate her, after a hard day I want... nay, need, some "me time" - alone with book or computer or tv or music to recharge. I'm stereotypically the first person to leave a party of my best friends - I love them, I love our time together, but at some point I had enough input and need to depart. My point is: I think "introvert" is a defining characteristic of me; but "have people skills" is just that - skills. I don't think I'll ever change whether I gain or lose energy from social interactions; that seems a pretty built-in aspect of my personality. But I can and did tremendously change how I actually interact with people - it may come easy to some, harder to others, and seemingly impossible to yet others, but it is in principle a learnable, acquirable skill. So, "6% of Business executives think introverts have people skills needed" makes me think this is an accidentally tautology - I'm pretty sure they mentally have defined "introverts" as "those with poor people skills", and that's not I think the most accurate definition.

galangalalgol 5y ago
My wife and I are both introverted, but people often don't believe that, especially with her. But after a party, or an event we are both exhausted. For me at least I think it comes from the effort I have to use to model the mental state of others. It does not come naturally.
- Biologist123 5y ago
  Fascinating insight.
- wiz21c 5y ago
  I understand what you say 5/5. I spend a lot of energy trying my best to understand others, to go beyond their facade, to ask about thing I disagree with, etc. Also, I have hard times when people judge or mock me (even if done in friendly way), etc. I hardly pass over it so, again, takes some energy.
- neonological 5y ago
  It's more complicated then introversion or extroversion. You are describing high empathy and fear of not pleasing others. You act a certain way to cater to other people and possibly spend way too much energy on it, hence the exhaustion. Most people aren't constantly modelling the mental state of others. You don't need to be in a constant state of anticipating the emotions of the other party when talking to them. Just talk. Don't spend too many cycles overly concerned about what others think.
  - galangalalgol 5y ago
    I tend to be rude, insensitive, or even offensive if I don't run a background process to prevent it. I don't want to hurt people's feelings, it just happens because I think differently, so my instinctual model for reasonable speech is different too. Those things I say wouldn't offend me for instance. After people get to know me and understand I can mostly turn it off and they will forgive. Strangers, or clients, I keep it running.

weasel_words 5y ago

Perhaps...but then you've mis-categorized the person as an introvert when they are actually socially awkward or, as you say, they have: "...poor social skills and lack of impact." There are both introverts and extroverts who have "poor social skills and lack of impact". Noisy extroverts who don't know when to stop talking is one example off the top of my head.

JI00912 5y ago

I think we just witnessed a murder.

kodah 5y ago

Is there any actual correlation between low social skills and introversion or is this just something people like to whack introverted people over the head with? In my own experience I've witnessed people, in general, who struggle to communicate or communicate effectively. I've also witnessed people who over communicate or dominate communication and are equally destructive. There's also something else I've noticed, which is that leaders are often perceived as effective when they're leading people whom their leadership style is compatible with.

plutonorm 5y ago
Perhaps, but only because the introverts have been beaten over the head repeatedly by the extrovert dominated culture. A socially intelligent introvert looks like a councillor, adept at understanding people in one on one situations, able to bring out the best in people.
groby_b 5y ago
> There's also something else I've noticed, which is that leaders are often perceived as effective when they're leading people whom their leadership style is compatible with. Puts the finger right on the important spot. People "get" you more if you relate to them in a familiar way. Which means that being an effective leader requires stuffing your "but I'm an X" ideas, and adapting to the people you're leading. (Step 2 is teaching them to adapt as well - it's not about permanently disguising yourself)
Viliam1234 5y ago
I would expect that one develops skills mostly by practicing, and extraverts typically get more practice with social interaction, simply because that is how they enjoy spending their free time. On the other hand, introverts may compensate e.g. by reading literature on social skills, or spend more time reflecting on what happened; and unless they are isolated, after a few decades they also get lot of experience. While extraverts may get stuck in the "high-school style of human interaction" and have difficulty move forward. Overall, I would guess that an average extravert will be much better than average introvert e.g. at small talk. But if you need a specialist, e.g. a therapist, the chances are more balanced, because for either it requires going beyond just following their instinct. But this is all just a guess. > There's also something else I've noticed, which is that leaders are often perceived as effective when they're leading people whom their leadership style is compatible with. Yep. But imagine that you have ten people in a room, five extraverted and five introverted. The extraverts will create a group in the middle of the room, and introverts will sit alone near the corners. If you randomly pick a leader, you will probably tell them to lead the group in the middle of the room -- and that is a task better suited to an extravert.

plutonorm 5y ago

You are still confusing effective leadership with extroversion. One on one relationship building is something that introverts excel at.

xyzelement 5y ago
I am? I am citing a deep introvert who richly invested in developing that skill. You make it sound like introversion is a disability rather than a default orientation.
- plutonorm 5y ago
  No, you are saying that you cannot be an effective leader using an introverted style. It is not necessary to run around hustling relationships in an extravert way in order to be effective. An introvert leader at their peak looks like the patrician from Terry Pratchet, Havelock Vetinari. He doesn't spin around burning energy building countless relationships, but understand the motion of people well enough to influence with out really being seen to influence. Subtle control through deep understanding rather sheer force of will.
void_mint 5y ago
> One on one relationship building is something that introverts excel at But...didn't you also just do the same thing? People are good at things they try to be good at. Being an introvert has nothing to do with that, nor does extroversion. Meaning, people that prioritize interpersonal skill and relationship building have the potential to become good leaders, regardless of their particular alignment.

plutonorm 5y ago

This reeks of "Extrovert privilege"

sidlls 5y ago

I find the kind of generalization and meanness in your comment is counterproductive: and also commonly trotted out when justifying the extroversion dominance in organizations. Also: social anxiety and shyness are very real problems that can easily be induced by the shame, ridicule, and lack of acceptance that introversion often is accompanied by. The fact that these things are often equated with “socially inept/incompetent” is extremely problematic.

xyzelement 5y ago
No offense but it sounds like you are more interested in being offended than comprehension and evolution. My whole point is that social skills and interaction are just that - skills. You can invest in them if you are introverted or even if you have some social anxiety (as, I suspect, I do.) If someone instead insists that there's nothing for them to learn, that their "badness" with people is a badge of honor in some way, then they just justify being bad at the expense of people around them. But, I guess we can just ignore that, forego the opportunity to improve, because you find it problematic :)
- sidlls 5y ago
  You’re the one suddenly bringing up an unwillingness to learn. It’s quite telling, too, as the language you used suggests you don’t view these things as medical conditions or disabilities, but instead personal failings to overcome. Also, pointing out meanness in a comment isn’t the same as being offended: it’s quite presumptuous really.
- yesenadam 5y ago
  When you find yourself starting a comment with "No offense but", perhaps look at why you felt your comment might cause offence. Then rewrite it in a kinder and less mean way that doesn't need a disclaimer. Your comment would have come across better—as trying to help, not trying to mock—without the first and last lines, which seem to break the guidelines.
watwut 5y ago
Anxiety and shyness is not the same as introversion. Extroverts have as much anxiety and are shy too. Introverts give public speaches or perform publically. Extroverts can be also socially inept.

blablabla123 5y ago

> Case in point, my last boss was a visible, forceful woman who emphasized relationship building. It took me a year to learn she actually is heavily introverted and spends her weekends not talking to anyone. She was an effective introverted leader but she was also just an effective leader, period. It wouldn't occur to her to share this article. Maybe if workplaces would be more acceptable of introverts she wouldn't have to spend the whole weekend recharging. Indeed this is not the first article making the case for introverts and it is obvious that introverts can act like extroverts and vice-versa. But there is a price to pay, e.g. needing some recharge time. > On the other hand, plentny of low impact people believe they have great ideas but they aren't able to articulate them to get any traction or even feedback. Plenty of high impact people just spill out their ideas and let other people spend many iterations to proof that those are bad ideas. Many introverts come up with excellent ideas and let them speak for themselves. Apart from that one shouldn't forget why people have been hired in the first place. So they bring something to the table and not everything was on the job description or is common knowledge. I wish there was more appreciation for different approaches, also given that almost half of the population is considered introverted.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
One of my former managers ( very much an extrovert ), summarized it to me thusly as he tried to show me his way: "If you turn out to be right, that is great. If not, that is ok too. But it is vital that you remain calm and confident irregardless." And the most fucking annoying thing about his approach is that it works.
- louthy 5y ago
  > irregardless Did he really use this non-word?
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    Yep. With full conviction of a person that he will not be corrected by his underlings.
  - 5y ago

dontbeabill 5y ago

maybe they want to avoid dealing with folks with aggressive attitudes like yours, and find life more pleasant dealing with more rational, level headed people or no one.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

I think you are onto something here. On the other hand, current breed of leadership is primarily full of type A, highly visible, forceful personalities that are, at best, difficult to ignore, but hard to take seriously. But I do like your point about how introversion is used an odd excuse. One of the first videos on the subject in one of my MBA classes was on that ( Susan Cain, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0KYU2j0TM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0KYU2j0TM4 ).

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

Introverts can make good leaders, but it can be difficult. Note I'm using what I feel is the most common definition of introversion/extroversion even if it is somewhat of a "pop" psychology definition, i.e. introverts recharge by quiet time alone, extroverts by being around others. When you are a leader, a huge part of your job is being around other people a lot, and communicating with them, often times having difficult conversations. I'm introverted, I think I have fairly good (or at least OK) social skills and I'm emotionally introspective, I was an engineering director and I think I was pretty good at it. However, it left me feeling completely exhausted. Every day I would come home and basically crash because I was spending a huge portion of my day talking to people. It negatively affected my relationship because it was hard for me to be available to my partner when I was so tired from interacting with other people all day. Contrast this with an extrovert, who actually gets energized by all of those daily interactions. It's very difficult to compete with that behavioral mindset in a job where a majority of work is person-to-person interactions. Not saying my experience is the same across all introverts, just expressing my frustration at a lot of these "introverts have super powers!" type articles that have an underlying message that some jobs (i.e. "leaders") are intrinsically more valuable than others.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]