4 ms·

Japan’s super-advanced mobile web: Too unique to serve as a global blueprint?

23 points by markbao 18y ago

amackera 18y ago
"Japan’s mobile web operators generate revenue by making sites and content providers pay considerable fees for prominent positions in their default menus." Japan's mobile web is completely controlled by the carriers. This just doesn't feel right. I want my Internet to be uncontrolled, unregulated. I don't want to pay any carrier (Rogers in my case) anything above my plan fees to be able to use the services of my phone. Japan is obviously an advanced market (the article reads like science fiction in some places!), but at what cost do these advances come?
- briansmith 18y ago
  Either you have to let the carriers control things or you have to have regulation. Without regulation, the carriers are free to do what they want since they own the network. To force them to do things they don't want to do, you have to have regulation. If regulation is stifling innovation then you can abolish the regulations. But, that just means everybody is free to do what they want, and you are back to where you started.
  - mtw 18y ago
    "Either you have to let the carriers control things or you have to have regulation" Apple proved this wrong, and I expect Google's android to do the same (well if they deliver what they announced)
    - alex_c 18y ago
      "Apple proved this wrong" Not really, some of the control shifted from the carriers to Apple, and the result isn't much better (or all that different overall)...
    - briansmith 18y ago
      "Apple proved this wrong" Where is Skype for iPhone? Why isn't tethering built into the iPhone? Why did they pull Netshare from the app store? "I expect Google's android to do the same." First, what can Android do that Windows Mobile and Symbian haven't already been doing for years? Android is just Google's attempt to get its advertisements displayed more often on mobile devices. It is the same thing that every advertising company has been trying to do in Japan, the US, and everywhere else ever since it's been possible to advertise on phones. Authorized retailers for AT&T/Verizon/etc. cannot sell any devices that aren't approved by the respective carrier. If the carrier doesn't approve the Android devices then they can only be sold at stores that don't sell service contracts. Those independent stores are not successful in the US, because everybody wants a phone tied to a service contract so that the cost of the phone is subsidized. If the carriers don't subsidize Android phones they will be priced out of the market. Further, any carrier can block any device. IMEI numbers are allocated in blocks and it isn't hard to identify the model based on the IMEI number. Without regulation ("net neutrality") they can also block any application or any protocol from operating on their network.
      - mtw 18y ago
        The Apple "platform" is not 100% free (you can't do yet voip or tethering), but for the first time, mobile software developers can deploy easily applications without asking permissions from carriers. Also, your web browsing experience on the iPhone is independent from the carrier. For instance, on any other carrier, they cram their links and "preferred partners" on starting page. Again, I agree there are limitations. If you are looking for complete "freedom", have a look at openmoko. "everybody wants a phone tied to a service contract so that the cost of the phone is subsidized" disagree. look at prepaid phones.
        briansmith 18y ago
        Even with the iPhone, carriers have the final say. If AT&T doesn't like an application, it can just ask Apple to remove it from the AppStore. Or, they could just block the network access that the application needs to work (e.g. blacklist websites that the application contacts). It is true that the iPhone doesn't come with vendor customizations, which is nice. However, none of the AT&T phones I have purchased have been extensively customized either. Most prepaid phones are subsidized by the carriers that distribute them (e.g. AT&T GoPhone), and those phones are locked to that carrier and have customized firmware. In the US, there are very few OEM phone sales. That is why you only see Nokia stores in the very biggest cities here (Chicago, New York, LA); I don't think there are any Sony-Ericsson shops in the US at all. OEM phones just don't sell.
briansmith 18y ago
The reason that Japanese people access the internet on their phones more than from computers is that they spend a huge amount of time on trains where there is nothing else to do. 1-2 hour train commutes each way are commonplace. They are not supposed to be looking around at other people on the train and they aren't supposed to talk on the phone. Most of the time you will be standing up because there are no seats available. What else are you going to do if you spend 2-4 hours a day standing still in one spot trying not to look at anyone?
- jrockway 18y ago
  What else are you going to do if you spend 2-4 hours a day standing still in one spot trying not to look at anyone? Read a book? And indeed, there is about an even split between people reading books and people playing with their mobiles. Remember that a lot of the trains run underground, and not every line has a cell phone signal for every provider. I think the reason for the popularity of the mobile Internet is that there is no complexity involved to use the Internet from your phone. Everything is designed for the phone; you can buy things, you get billed for it, and it shows up at your house. On the computer, you have to type in details every time, and credit cards aren't very common, so you have to arrange some other way of paying. It's a pain. Some other nice integration -- if you buy a JAL ticket and check-in with your mobile, you can use the phone as your boarding pass. I can check in for my flights on my US-based cell phone, but that's not going to get me through security. (Note that Japan also has realistic airport security, unlike the US.)
  - nickb 18y ago
    The two are not mutually exclusive. http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2007/01/72329 http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2007/01/72329
- d0mine 18y ago
  The main reason is the complexity of Japanese language, namely technical barriers that existed for text entry and displaying the characters on personnel computer in 80s-90s (http://blog.gatunka.com/2008/05/05/why-japan-didnt-create-the-ipod/ http://blog.gatunka.com/2008/05/05/why-japan-didnt-create-th...) Thus there is a strong culture of complex specialized gadgets and a weak general-purpose personal computer culture.
aofstad 18y ago
Mobile technology advances much faster in Japan because it is so much easier to maintain and upgrade the infrastructure. In such a small country, it is considerably cheaper to upgrade to the newest mobile data technology. In a country the size of the US, not so cheap or easy just because of the geography. Japan telecom companies were able to adopt 3G technologies much quicker than other places for this reason, and this technology became commonplace before it did in other countries. So mobile computing has had more time to develop and permeate their culture. In any case, it's probably good that mobile internet in the US is developing more slowly and cautiously around the open internet instead of the carrier's content.
- babul 18y ago
  The geographical size has its advantages but it is more about the culture and people. The society in Japan embraces technology (and the change and progress it usually entails) more readily than almost anywhere else, so such continuous early adoption creates the virtuous circles that continue to feed it. If the markets in other small countries (especially those with similar economies) behaved in the same way, the demand (and money to be made) would fuel industry to do the same.
  - stcredzero 18y ago
    Japanese culture still seems to prize intelligence, whereas places like the US require you to hide it some of the time. It's almost like they're an entire nation of nerds.
    - nickb 18y ago
      As someone who knows a lot about Japan, I can tell you that you're partially wrong. Japanese culture prizes intelligence as much as Western culture: only in those circles that would appreciate it. Read up on traditional Japanese saying: "The Nail that Sticks Up will be hammered down." and conformity of Japanese culture. http://www.snorko.org/cyberwrite/eng103/students/dianec.html http://www.snorko.org/cyberwrite/eng103/students/dianec.html
    - 18y ago

23 points by markbao 18y ago

"Japan’s mobile web operators generate revenue by making sites and content providers pay considerable fees for prominent positions in their default menus." Japan's mobile web is completely controlled by the carriers. This just doesn't feel right. I want my Internet to be uncontrolled, unregulated. I don't want to pay any carrier (Rogers in my case) anything above my plan fees to be able to use the services of my phone. Japan is obviously an advanced market (the article reads like science fiction in some places!), but at what cost do these advances come?

briansmith 18y ago
Either you have to let the carriers control things or you have to have regulation. Without regulation, the carriers are free to do what they want since they own the network. To force them to do things they don't want to do, you have to have regulation. If regulation is stifling innovation then you can abolish the regulations. But, that just means everybody is free to do what they want, and you are back to where you started.
- mtw 18y ago
  "Either you have to let the carriers control things or you have to have regulation" Apple proved this wrong, and I expect Google's android to do the same (well if they deliver what they announced)
  - alex_c 18y ago
    "Apple proved this wrong" Not really, some of the control shifted from the carriers to Apple, and the result isn't much better (or all that different overall)...
  - briansmith 18y ago
    "Apple proved this wrong" Where is Skype for iPhone? Why isn't tethering built into the iPhone? Why did they pull Netshare from the app store? "I expect Google's android to do the same." First, what can Android do that Windows Mobile and Symbian haven't already been doing for years? Android is just Google's attempt to get its advertisements displayed more often on mobile devices. It is the same thing that every advertising company has been trying to do in Japan, the US, and everywhere else ever since it's been possible to advertise on phones. Authorized retailers for AT&T/Verizon/etc. cannot sell any devices that aren't approved by the respective carrier. If the carrier doesn't approve the Android devices then they can only be sold at stores that don't sell service contracts. Those independent stores are not successful in the US, because everybody wants a phone tied to a service contract so that the cost of the phone is subsidized. If the carriers don't subsidize Android phones they will be priced out of the market. Further, any carrier can block any device. IMEI numbers are allocated in blocks and it isn't hard to identify the model based on the IMEI number. Without regulation ("net neutrality") they can also block any application or any protocol from operating on their network.
    - mtw 18y ago
      The Apple "platform" is not 100% free (you can't do yet voip or tethering), but for the first time, mobile software developers can deploy easily applications without asking permissions from carriers. Also, your web browsing experience on the iPhone is independent from the carrier. For instance, on any other carrier, they cram their links and "preferred partners" on starting page. Again, I agree there are limitations. If you are looking for complete "freedom", have a look at openmoko. "everybody wants a phone tied to a service contract so that the cost of the phone is subsidized" disagree. look at prepaid phones.
      - briansmith 18y ago
        Even with the iPhone, carriers have the final say. If AT&T doesn't like an application, it can just ask Apple to remove it from the AppStore. Or, they could just block the network access that the application needs to work (e.g. blacklist websites that the application contacts). It is true that the iPhone doesn't come with vendor customizations, which is nice. However, none of the AT&T phones I have purchased have been extensively customized either. Most prepaid phones are subsidized by the carriers that distribute them (e.g. AT&T GoPhone), and those phones are locked to that carrier and have customized firmware. In the US, there are very few OEM phone sales. That is why you only see Nokia stores in the very biggest cities here (Chicago, New York, LA); I don't think there are any Sony-Ericsson shops in the US at all. OEM phones just don't sell.

briansmith 18y ago

The reason that Japanese people access the internet on their phones more than from computers is that they spend a huge amount of time on trains where there is nothing else to do. 1-2 hour train commutes each way are commonplace. They are not supposed to be looking around at other people on the train and they aren't supposed to talk on the phone. Most of the time you will be standing up because there are no seats available. What else are you going to do if you spend 2-4 hours a day standing still in one spot trying not to look at anyone?

jrockway 18y ago
What else are you going to do if you spend 2-4 hours a day standing still in one spot trying not to look at anyone? Read a book? And indeed, there is about an even split between people reading books and people playing with their mobiles. Remember that a lot of the trains run underground, and not every line has a cell phone signal for every provider. I think the reason for the popularity of the mobile Internet is that there is no complexity involved to use the Internet from your phone. Everything is designed for the phone; you can buy things, you get billed for it, and it shows up at your house. On the computer, you have to type in details every time, and credit cards aren't very common, so you have to arrange some other way of paying. It's a pain. Some other nice integration -- if you buy a JAL ticket and check-in with your mobile, you can use the phone as your boarding pass. I can check in for my flights on my US-based cell phone, but that's not going to get me through security. (Note that Japan also has realistic airport security, unlike the US.)
- nickb 18y ago
  The two are not mutually exclusive. http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2007/01/72329 http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2007/01/72329
d0mine 18y ago
The main reason is the complexity of Japanese language, namely technical barriers that existed for text entry and displaying the characters on personnel computer in 80s-90s (http://blog.gatunka.com/2008/05/05/why-japan-didnt-create-the-ipod/ http://blog.gatunka.com/2008/05/05/why-japan-didnt-create-th...) Thus there is a strong culture of complex specialized gadgets and a weak general-purpose personal computer culture.

aofstad 18y ago

Mobile technology advances much faster in Japan because it is so much easier to maintain and upgrade the infrastructure. In such a small country, it is considerably cheaper to upgrade to the newest mobile data technology. In a country the size of the US, not so cheap or easy just because of the geography. Japan telecom companies were able to adopt 3G technologies much quicker than other places for this reason, and this technology became commonplace before it did in other countries. So mobile computing has had more time to develop and permeate their culture. In any case, it's probably good that mobile internet in the US is developing more slowly and cautiously around the open internet instead of the carrier's content.

babul 18y ago
The geographical size has its advantages but it is more about the culture and people. The society in Japan embraces technology (and the change and progress it usually entails) more readily than almost anywhere else, so such continuous early adoption creates the virtuous circles that continue to feed it. If the markets in other small countries (especially those with similar economies) behaved in the same way, the demand (and money to be made) would fuel industry to do the same.
- stcredzero 18y ago
  Japanese culture still seems to prize intelligence, whereas places like the US require you to hide it some of the time. It's almost like they're an entire nation of nerds.
  - nickb 18y ago
    As someone who knows a lot about Japan, I can tell you that you're partially wrong. Japanese culture prizes intelligence as much as Western culture: only in those circles that would appreciate it. Read up on traditional Japanese saying: "The Nail that Sticks Up will be hammered down." and conformity of Japanese culture. http://www.snorko.org/cyberwrite/eng103/students/dianec.html http://www.snorko.org/cyberwrite/eng103/students/dianec.html
  - 18y ago