6 ms·

What does the future hold for Windows if it isn't Windows 10x?

48 points by zathan 5y ago

dannyw 5y ago
I think what's next for Windows is competitive x86-64 emulation to enable a new generation of ARM devices with strong battery life, and forcing Intel and AMD to drop prices to compete. Windows can be the Android to iOS. Ultimately, most desktops and laptops run Windows, and if Microsoft is able to make it competitive on pricing (#1!), battery life, and performance, it's hard to imagine Chrome OS or the single user iPad seriously eroding Windows. Most people in the world aren't affluent like the average HN reader. Their biggest consideration when buying a computing device is value, and Windows PC + ARM can win here. Imagine a $499 laptop with a solid M1-level processor, a nice IPS display, good keyboard, 10+ hours battery life, and Windows 10. That's serious competitor to both Chrome OS devices and Mac devices.
- Negitivefrags 5y ago
  I wonder to what degree battery life is specifically an issue with x64. If Apple ported iOS to x64, I wonder what the battery life on a device would be like compared to ARM?
  - dannyw 5y ago
    We should see with Alder Lake. Intel is adopting the same BIG.little approach, with a mix of high efficiency and high performance cores. Of course, one thing Intel and AMD can't catch up on is pure transitor size. Apple has TSMC 5nm, Intel is on the equivalent of TSMC 7nm (Intel 10nm), and so is AMD.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - eyelidlessness 5y ago
    This seems like a a weird thing to speculate about. Of course iOS isn’t exactly macOS, but it’s essentially the same OS with a few different feature flags and a different set of preferred UI frameworks, which are increasingly not so different. That almost exactly same OS is now running on exactly the same processor in an iPad. You can more or less compare that device to anything with similar thermals in an x64 machine.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- numpad0 5y ago
  Isn’t it interesting that Windows(and macOS for iOS) remains to be THE platform for creation and Android/Chrome OS/iOS to be consumption-only platforms? Combined with the fact that Intel and AMD each owns Altera and Xilinx...
- toast0 5y ago
  > Imagine a $499 laptop with a solid M1-level processor, a nice IPS display, good keyboard, 10+ hours battery life, and Windows 10. > That's serious competitor to both Chrome OS devices and Mac devices. $500 is a tough sell vs a $200 Chromebook if Chrome OS does what you need.
  - EvilEy3 5y ago
    $200 is a tough sell vs $100 Android phone if Android does what you need.
- iforgotpassword 5y ago
  This seems unlikely. I could see this make a bit more sense if Microsoft wouldn't have screwed up their mobile platform so badly, but if you just serve desktop/laptop, a switch to arm doesn't make sense. I expect x86 to catch up enough to not justify the performance impact of even really good emulation on arm. Usually if you go Windows it's because of its huge software library and backwards compat, so I wouldn't bank on having all the important apps be native arm after a year or two. Everyone else is already on a different platform.
- rmrfchik 5y ago
  I see people still use Windows only for old business apps (like bookkeeping and such). Almost all of their other work moved to web. I successfully moved my wife's notebook to Linux as she don't need legacy apps. Photos, Movies, Music all works fine in Linux and web. Desktop apps she used are cross-platform. Since using Linux all rant she had "aaaaarrrgh, Windows again updating and requires restart!" disappeared. And performance just rocket up agains Windows. I think, importance of native desktop apps will fade away and Windows can lose this advantage.
  - ativzzz 5y ago
    Which distro did you move her to?
    - rmrfchik 5y ago
      Debian/KDE. I used to use it since 1997. KDE looks well for Windows user. But this week I bought new Dell Vostro with Ubuntu 20.04 preinstalled. Although Ubuntu gave me some unpleasant impressions (controversial UI decisions, buggy as hell (can't imagine they call it LTS)) I gave it 2nd chance with fresh install of 21.04.
  - kingkongjaffa 5y ago
    Windows is still the undisputed king in enterprise computers for workers. Anywhere in the world you will find business laptops running windows and the primary work will be done in outlook, excel, word, and PowerPoint.
- tored 5y ago
  Don’t the already have x86_64 emulation? Pretty sure I have seen them demonstrating downloading a x86_64 binary from the internet and running it unchanged on Windows 10 ARM laptop.
  - ZuLuuuuuu 5y ago
    I think that feature is still in beta phase, so Windows ARM users need to opt-in and install the "insider" version of Windows to try it out.
- 0-_-0 5y ago
  I wonder why there hasn't been a Raspberry Pi with Windows on ARM yet, or at least something similar. This could kickstart the Windows on ARM ecosystem, so more SW would be available when the laptops/tablets come out. It would probably increase the sales of Rpi by a lot as well.
jycr753 5y ago
Telemetry, being able to trust it.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  This... Was appalled by how much data the collect by default even when thinking I had unchecked everything during install and startup. Then I ran Windows Update and they automatically installed HP spyware.
jpalomaki 5y ago
There has been also speculation about adopting Linux kernel, but I don’t think there’s any evidence pointing to this direction. I think this must be one option that is (or was) on table if they are also thinking about rebuilding whole windows.
- FourthProtocol 5y ago
  That makes backwards compatibility very challenging so is not really an option.
  - Iolaum 5y ago
    WINE has demonstrated that this problem is solvable. They may not have the resources to make everything work seamlessly but that's not a problem for Microsoft.
    - tored 5y ago
      The thing is that backwards compatibility is already developed, it called Windows and already paid for. That is the problem with all these ideas of rebuilding, it cost lots of money for ending up in at same place you already are.
    - swiley 5y ago
      I would be shocked if Microsoft abandoned the NT kernel but I wouldn't be too surprised if they open sourced a lot of the win32 runtime and turned it into some community maintained thing. They've already done this with .net.
- tored 5y ago
  What would adopting a Linux kernel solve? Nothing. Problem here is not the NT Kernel, the problem is user space. So building everything on top of the Linux kernel would end up in the exact same position as before because the need of backwards compatibility, this would cost money with no benefit. And the thing is they have already integrated Linux with WSL2 and can now run Linux desktop applications anyway. Rebuilding Windows seems unlikely because there is no money in building operating systems, meaning for every operating system you build you need to maintain it indefinitely without getting paid for it. What Microsoft need to do is to find a new market for their products. With a new market you can package Windows (or whatever) to fit that market specifically.
cm2187 5y ago
Changing my default applications on every OS update seems to be their main innovation
- netflixandkill 5y ago
  Don't forget re-enabling spy telemetry accidentally-on-purpose.
mrweasel 5y ago
A UI cleanup is needed. What Microsoft needs to do is pick a style and actually complete the transition. They aren't done with the transition to the Win10 look and feel. They never complete the metro migration. The Vista/Windows 7 look was never implemented through out the entire OS. In fact, even Windows XP never removed all the Windows 95/98/NT/2000 components. At this point I also don't care if it's at the cost of backward compatibility, but they also need to fix the response times in the Windows UI. Given that high end games play very well on Windows, the OS is clearly able to process inputs fast enough. Yet for some reason when you're navigating the Windows desktop, everything seems to react pretty slowly. Windows 2000 was the last version I was able to use without having my mouse hand cramp up. Something in Windows causes me to tense up my left hand (my mouse hand). It doesn't happen in macOS and it doesn't happen on Linux (Gnome/KDE/XFCE).
- Tempest1981 5y ago
  > pick a style and actually complete the transition Is this why every app on Win10 seems to have a different title bar color? And even different active/inactive behavior? And how do I move a browser window, now that my 8-15 browser tabs consume all of the title bar area?
  - DanBC 5y ago
    > And how do I move a browser window, now that my 8-15 browser tabs consume all of the title bar area? Keyboard shortcuts? Alt space brings up the "restore, move, size, minimise, maximise, close" menu. Windows Key + cursor keys will snap the window to different places.
  - tpxl 5y ago
    > And how do I move a browser window, now that my 8-15 browser tabs consume all of the title bar area? This is the fault of browsers, not the OS. I think chrome was the first to do away with the actual title bar and put tabs there, then everyone followed. You can change this in the settings I think, there should be a small area you can drag between the minimize button and the last tab (on FF at least), and then you can always hit the "Alt" button to bring up the title bar you can then grab.
Royi 5y ago
Microsoft has shown it can incorporate VM to feel native with WSL1 / WSL2. So why not bring the new Windows Core OS and have backward compatibility with integrated VM?
- crazysim 5y ago
  They've even sort of done this before on the Xbox One. That thing runs many OSes at once!
- tored 5y ago
  Yes, some sort of containerization could solve all this. Drawback is size on disk, however with today’s disks like m2 I don’t think it should be a major problem.
- lloeki 5y ago
  I seem to recall that was sort of the plan starting with Windows 8. On the inside the "metro" core runtime (can't remember the name) was not depending on the historical win32 parts, and on the GUI the win32-dependent desktop appeared as a tile i.e conceptually an "app" on the start screen. Like a nested VM, but at the library level. I could have readily imagined multiple desktop tiles being there, one per legacy Windows version, to maintain some sort of perfect backwards compatibility without emulation, Wine style? You could see a path forward where the start screen OS was not a layer atop the desktop, but the main thing with the legacy desktop boxed inside, possibly in the future only installed when a legacy app required it, and pruneable anytime. It made me think of the Win95+ transition ultimately leading to the MSDOS dependency being turned around and dropped. Of course mistakes were made, and people cried foul about losing the desktop, so back to the desktop it went, with its legacy cruft. Maybe indeed it can still move forward that way by using a more "Fusion" like approach where foreign legacy Windows appear on the desktop (like WSL2+GUI).
- ptx 5y ago
  That's actually what they were doing[1] in Windows 10X, now cancelled. I guess the future of Windows continues to be the Win32 API. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztrmrIlgbIc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztrmrIlgbIc
- 5y ago
jl6 5y ago
Windows faces a dilemma - its most valuable users value it for its deep and broad compatibility, but this compatibility is provided by geological layers of legacy cruft, which puts a severe drag on modernization initiatives. Case in point: the bizarre inconsistency of the current Windows 10 UX. The way forward is probably to partition off those compatibility layers somehow, and sell support for them as add-on services, with a price escalator balanced so as to encourage migration to modern APIs, while presenting no cliff-edge that would push customers to competitors.
- dataflow 5y ago
  The legacy "cruft" is the good stuff. It's the modern Windows 10 UI that stinks. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's bad (or new/good).
  - jl6 5y ago
    I’m thinking wider than just UI, but in this example, I think the main reason the “old” UI is perceived as superior is because it was, once, finished, whereas the “new” UI is a perpetual work-in-progress mish-mash of different generations’ worth of UI teams’ competing ideas clashing with each other and creating a total mess. I think the “new” UI is fixable, but the way to do this is to finish it and make it a coherent system, not to add another layer while keeping the old layers hanging around.
    - zo1 5y ago
      One huge glaring example of this is how "settings" are handled in Windows. Half the stuff is in fancy new "metro" UIs that are gimped and practically useless, all web-styled with padding everywhere and choked full of "UX". Whilst we still have the functional and familiar Control Panel. The day they remove the Control Panel is the day I switch to Linux permanently.
      - toyg 5y ago
        The new Settings is indeed a trainwreck. They thought they could get away with a coat of paint, leaving “advanced” stuff to the old UI (too much shit to do, bro!), but the result is an annoying and unusable mishmash. They would have spent their time better by reskinning win32.
flohofwoe 5y ago
The question was rather, what would the future of Windows have looked liked with Windows 10x. I'd say pretty bleak. If Win32 support wasn't perfect at launch (and AFAIK it was planned to not even support Win32 initially) it would be dead on arrival, everybody would stick with their "proper" Windows version instead of upgrading. New buyers would wonder why their new Windows PC doesn't run any games and either return the PC or "downgrade" to Win10. The whole idea didn't make any sense from the start. There are better devices and operating system options out there that don't run Windows applications. Why should I pick Win10X?
loopvv 5y ago
Is there still a Windows version that does not have telemetry and all the silly content forced on your desktop? Windows HPC Server 2008 was decent, does something like that still exist?
- ToFab123 5y ago
  Yes. Enterprise edition
- jleahy 5y ago
  Windows 2000 Professional
- pasttense01 5y ago
  Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC (long term servicing channel) While you can buy individual licenses from companies like CDW, some just get it via file-sharing.
wire_wolf 5y ago
Two things that annoyed me about this article are that that 1. A "Modern OS" is an OS that is vendor locked to hell. 2. A graphical re-work is comparable to actual features. The person who wrote this article seems to think that progress in OSs taking control away from the users. I'm not a big fan of Windows, but I give it a lot of respect for compatibility and allowing users to modify it to some extent. This could be my command line bias coming through. But how does a graphical rework and new icons compare to real-world features? WSL1 and WSL2 are both impactful tools added to the Windows desktop. While reading this article would seem to have you believe that a graphical re-fresh is the most cutting edge feature that Microsoft has for Windows. I am not a fan of the Windows Operating system, but this article seems to criticize and ignore everything I think it's doing right while ignoring everything that it's doing wrong. Like spying on users or not supporting better file systems.
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  Yes, as for the OS-es that the author calls "modern", the user is not really the owner of the device - the vendor is. Fortunately there are still many people who understand the value of unlocked platforms.
- kyriakos 5y ago
  I agree with you. He even mentions no direct access to file system. IMO direct access to file system is one of the main things differentiating operating systems from content consumption devices such as mobile OSs.
- LinAGKar 5y ago
  I do see value in having applications compartmentalized (which is something the Linux world is moving towards too with Flatpak and Snappy). But the user should have full access to it, which is is not the case on mobile.
  - sam_lowry_ 5y ago
    I literally use only Xterm, Chromium and IntelliJ. And a gazilion of UI-less programs that are useful only they can feed on each other. How is Flatpack/Snappy approach helping me?
josteink 5y ago
I have to admit this is the first time ever I’ve heard about Windows 10X. Reading about it, it seems ambitious but also kinda risky or unrealistic to pull of, much in the same way Windows 8 with the “modern” apps failed to garner developers and reboot the Windows developer-platform and ecosystem. Maybe Microsoft concluded the same and decided to can it before investing too much in it?
jpeter 5y ago
The future of windows begins when explorer has tabs and good search

48 points by zathan 5y ago

I think what's next for Windows is competitive x86-64 emulation to enable a new generation of ARM devices with strong battery life, and forcing Intel and AMD to drop prices to compete. Windows can be the Android to iOS. Ultimately, most desktops and laptops run Windows, and if Microsoft is able to make it competitive on pricing (#1!), battery life, and performance, it's hard to imagine Chrome OS or the single user iPad seriously eroding Windows. Most people in the world aren't affluent like the average HN reader. Their biggest consideration when buying a computing device is value, and Windows PC + ARM can win here. Imagine a $499 laptop with a solid M1-level processor, a nice IPS display, good keyboard, 10+ hours battery life, and Windows 10. That's serious competitor to both Chrome OS devices and Mac devices.

Negitivefrags 5y ago
I wonder to what degree battery life is specifically an issue with x64. If Apple ported iOS to x64, I wonder what the battery life on a device would be like compared to ARM?
- dannyw 5y ago
  We should see with Alder Lake. Intel is adopting the same BIG.little approach, with a mix of high efficiency and high performance cores. Of course, one thing Intel and AMD can't catch up on is pure transitor size. Apple has TSMC 5nm, Intel is on the equivalent of TSMC 7nm (Intel 10nm), and so is AMD.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  This seems like a a weird thing to speculate about. Of course iOS isn’t exactly macOS, but it’s essentially the same OS with a few different feature flags and a different set of preferred UI frameworks, which are increasingly not so different. That almost exactly same OS is now running on exactly the same processor in an iPad. You can more or less compare that device to anything with similar thermals in an x64 machine.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
numpad0 5y ago
Isn’t it interesting that Windows(and macOS for iOS) remains to be THE platform for creation and Android/Chrome OS/iOS to be consumption-only platforms? Combined with the fact that Intel and AMD each owns Altera and Xilinx...
toast0 5y ago
> Imagine a $499 laptop with a solid M1-level processor, a nice IPS display, good keyboard, 10+ hours battery life, and Windows 10. > That's serious competitor to both Chrome OS devices and Mac devices. $500 is a tough sell vs a $200 Chromebook if Chrome OS does what you need.
- EvilEy3 5y ago
  $200 is a tough sell vs $100 Android phone if Android does what you need.
iforgotpassword 5y ago
This seems unlikely. I could see this make a bit more sense if Microsoft wouldn't have screwed up their mobile platform so badly, but if you just serve desktop/laptop, a switch to arm doesn't make sense. I expect x86 to catch up enough to not justify the performance impact of even really good emulation on arm. Usually if you go Windows it's because of its huge software library and backwards compat, so I wouldn't bank on having all the important apps be native arm after a year or two. Everyone else is already on a different platform.
rmrfchik 5y ago
I see people still use Windows only for old business apps (like bookkeeping and such). Almost all of their other work moved to web. I successfully moved my wife's notebook to Linux as she don't need legacy apps. Photos, Movies, Music all works fine in Linux and web. Desktop apps she used are cross-platform. Since using Linux all rant she had "aaaaarrrgh, Windows again updating and requires restart!" disappeared. And performance just rocket up agains Windows. I think, importance of native desktop apps will fade away and Windows can lose this advantage.
- ativzzz 5y ago
  Which distro did you move her to?
  - rmrfchik 5y ago
    Debian/KDE. I used to use it since 1997. KDE looks well for Windows user. But this week I bought new Dell Vostro with Ubuntu 20.04 preinstalled. Although Ubuntu gave me some unpleasant impressions (controversial UI decisions, buggy as hell (can't imagine they call it LTS)) I gave it 2nd chance with fresh install of 21.04.
- kingkongjaffa 5y ago
  Windows is still the undisputed king in enterprise computers for workers. Anywhere in the world you will find business laptops running windows and the primary work will be done in outlook, excel, word, and PowerPoint.
tored 5y ago
Don’t the already have x86_64 emulation? Pretty sure I have seen them demonstrating downloading a x86_64 binary from the internet and running it unchanged on Windows 10 ARM laptop.
- ZuLuuuuuu 5y ago
  I think that feature is still in beta phase, so Windows ARM users need to opt-in and install the "insider" version of Windows to try it out.
0-_-0 5y ago
I wonder why there hasn't been a Raspberry Pi with Windows on ARM yet, or at least something similar. This could kickstart the Windows on ARM ecosystem, so more SW would be available when the laptops/tablets come out. It would probably increase the sales of Rpi by a lot as well.

jycr753 5y ago

Telemetry, being able to trust it.

encryptluks2 5y ago
This... Was appalled by how much data the collect by default even when thinking I had unchecked everything during install and startup. Then I ran Windows Update and they automatically installed HP spyware.

jpalomaki 5y ago

There has been also speculation about adopting Linux kernel, but I don’t think there’s any evidence pointing to this direction. I think this must be one option that is (or was) on table if they are also thinking about rebuilding whole windows.

FourthProtocol 5y ago
That makes backwards compatibility very challenging so is not really an option.
- Iolaum 5y ago
  WINE has demonstrated that this problem is solvable. They may not have the resources to make everything work seamlessly but that's not a problem for Microsoft.
  - tored 5y ago
    The thing is that backwards compatibility is already developed, it called Windows and already paid for. That is the problem with all these ideas of rebuilding, it cost lots of money for ending up in at same place you already are.
  - swiley 5y ago
    I would be shocked if Microsoft abandoned the NT kernel but I wouldn't be too surprised if they open sourced a lot of the win32 runtime and turned it into some community maintained thing. They've already done this with .net.
tored 5y ago
What would adopting a Linux kernel solve? Nothing. Problem here is not the NT Kernel, the problem is user space. So building everything on top of the Linux kernel would end up in the exact same position as before because the need of backwards compatibility, this would cost money with no benefit. And the thing is they have already integrated Linux with WSL2 and can now run Linux desktop applications anyway. Rebuilding Windows seems unlikely because there is no money in building operating systems, meaning for every operating system you build you need to maintain it indefinitely without getting paid for it. What Microsoft need to do is to find a new market for their products. With a new market you can package Windows (or whatever) to fit that market specifically.

cm2187 5y ago

Changing my default applications on every OS update seems to be their main innovation

netflixandkill 5y ago
Don't forget re-enabling spy telemetry accidentally-on-purpose.

mrweasel 5y ago

A UI cleanup is needed. What Microsoft needs to do is pick a style and actually complete the transition. They aren't done with the transition to the Win10 look and feel. They never complete the metro migration. The Vista/Windows 7 look was never implemented through out the entire OS. In fact, even Windows XP never removed all the Windows 95/98/NT/2000 components. At this point I also don't care if it's at the cost of backward compatibility, but they also need to fix the response times in the Windows UI. Given that high end games play very well on Windows, the OS is clearly able to process inputs fast enough. Yet for some reason when you're navigating the Windows desktop, everything seems to react pretty slowly. Windows 2000 was the last version I was able to use without having my mouse hand cramp up. Something in Windows causes me to tense up my left hand (my mouse hand). It doesn't happen in macOS and it doesn't happen on Linux (Gnome/KDE/XFCE).

Tempest1981 5y ago
> pick a style and actually complete the transition Is this why every app on Win10 seems to have a different title bar color? And even different active/inactive behavior? And how do I move a browser window, now that my 8-15 browser tabs consume all of the title bar area?
- DanBC 5y ago
  > And how do I move a browser window, now that my 8-15 browser tabs consume all of the title bar area? Keyboard shortcuts? Alt space brings up the "restore, move, size, minimise, maximise, close" menu. Windows Key + cursor keys will snap the window to different places.
- tpxl 5y ago
  > And how do I move a browser window, now that my 8-15 browser tabs consume all of the title bar area? This is the fault of browsers, not the OS. I think chrome was the first to do away with the actual title bar and put tabs there, then everyone followed. You can change this in the settings I think, there should be a small area you can drag between the minimize button and the last tab (on FF at least), and then you can always hit the "Alt" button to bring up the title bar you can then grab.

Royi 5y ago

Microsoft has shown it can incorporate VM to feel native with WSL1 / WSL2. So why not bring the new Windows Core OS and have backward compatibility with integrated VM?

crazysim 5y ago
They've even sort of done this before on the Xbox One. That thing runs many OSes at once!
tored 5y ago
Yes, some sort of containerization could solve all this. Drawback is size on disk, however with today’s disks like m2 I don’t think it should be a major problem.
lloeki 5y ago
I seem to recall that was sort of the plan starting with Windows 8. On the inside the "metro" core runtime (can't remember the name) was not depending on the historical win32 parts, and on the GUI the win32-dependent desktop appeared as a tile i.e conceptually an "app" on the start screen. Like a nested VM, but at the library level. I could have readily imagined multiple desktop tiles being there, one per legacy Windows version, to maintain some sort of perfect backwards compatibility without emulation, Wine style? You could see a path forward where the start screen OS was not a layer atop the desktop, but the main thing with the legacy desktop boxed inside, possibly in the future only installed when a legacy app required it, and pruneable anytime. It made me think of the Win95+ transition ultimately leading to the MSDOS dependency being turned around and dropped. Of course mistakes were made, and people cried foul about losing the desktop, so back to the desktop it went, with its legacy cruft. Maybe indeed it can still move forward that way by using a more "Fusion" like approach where foreign legacy Windows appear on the desktop (like WSL2+GUI).
ptx 5y ago
That's actually what they were doing[1] in Windows 10X, now cancelled. I guess the future of Windows continues to be the Win32 API. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztrmrIlgbIc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztrmrIlgbIc
5y ago

jl6 5y ago

Windows faces a dilemma - its most valuable users value it for its deep and broad compatibility, but this compatibility is provided by geological layers of legacy cruft, which puts a severe drag on modernization initiatives. Case in point: the bizarre inconsistency of the current Windows 10 UX. The way forward is probably to partition off those compatibility layers somehow, and sell support for them as add-on services, with a price escalator balanced so as to encourage migration to modern APIs, while presenting no cliff-edge that would push customers to competitors.

dataflow 5y ago
The legacy "cruft" is the good stuff. It's the modern Windows 10 UI that stinks. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's bad (or new/good).
- jl6 5y ago
  I’m thinking wider than just UI, but in this example, I think the main reason the “old” UI is perceived as superior is because it was, once, finished, whereas the “new” UI is a perpetual work-in-progress mish-mash of different generations’ worth of UI teams’ competing ideas clashing with each other and creating a total mess. I think the “new” UI is fixable, but the way to do this is to finish it and make it a coherent system, not to add another layer while keeping the old layers hanging around.
  - zo1 5y ago
    One huge glaring example of this is how "settings" are handled in Windows. Half the stuff is in fancy new "metro" UIs that are gimped and practically useless, all web-styled with padding everywhere and choked full of "UX". Whilst we still have the functional and familiar Control Panel. The day they remove the Control Panel is the day I switch to Linux permanently.
    - toyg 5y ago
      The new Settings is indeed a trainwreck. They thought they could get away with a coat of paint, leaving “advanced” stuff to the old UI (too much shit to do, bro!), but the result is an annoying and unusable mishmash. They would have spent their time better by reskinning win32.

flohofwoe 5y ago

The question was rather, what would the future of Windows have looked liked with Windows 10x. I'd say pretty bleak. If Win32 support wasn't perfect at launch (and AFAIK it was planned to not even support Win32 initially) it would be dead on arrival, everybody would stick with their "proper" Windows version instead of upgrading. New buyers would wonder why their new Windows PC doesn't run any games and either return the PC or "downgrade" to Win10. The whole idea didn't make any sense from the start. There are better devices and operating system options out there that don't run Windows applications. Why should I pick Win10X?

loopvv 5y ago

Is there still a Windows version that does not have telemetry and all the silly content forced on your desktop? Windows HPC Server 2008 was decent, does something like that still exist?

ToFab123 5y ago
Yes. Enterprise edition
jleahy 5y ago
Windows 2000 Professional
pasttense01 5y ago
Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC (long term servicing channel) While you can buy individual licenses from companies like CDW, some just get it via file-sharing.

wire_wolf 5y ago

Two things that annoyed me about this article are that that 1. A "Modern OS" is an OS that is vendor locked to hell. 2. A graphical re-work is comparable to actual features. The person who wrote this article seems to think that progress in OSs taking control away from the users. I'm not a big fan of Windows, but I give it a lot of respect for compatibility and allowing users to modify it to some extent. This could be my command line bias coming through. But how does a graphical rework and new icons compare to real-world features? WSL1 and WSL2 are both impactful tools added to the Windows desktop. While reading this article would seem to have you believe that a graphical re-fresh is the most cutting edge feature that Microsoft has for Windows. I am not a fan of the Windows Operating system, but this article seems to criticize and ignore everything I think it's doing right while ignoring everything that it's doing wrong. Like spying on users or not supporting better file systems.

dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
Yes, as for the OS-es that the author calls "modern", the user is not really the owner of the device - the vendor is. Fortunately there are still many people who understand the value of unlocked platforms.
kyriakos 5y ago
I agree with you. He even mentions no direct access to file system. IMO direct access to file system is one of the main things differentiating operating systems from content consumption devices such as mobile OSs.
LinAGKar 5y ago
I do see value in having applications compartmentalized (which is something the Linux world is moving towards too with Flatpak and Snappy). But the user should have full access to it, which is is not the case on mobile.
- sam_lowry_ 5y ago
  I literally use only Xterm, Chromium and IntelliJ. And a gazilion of UI-less programs that are useful only they can feed on each other. How is Flatpack/Snappy approach helping me?

josteink 5y ago

I have to admit this is the first time ever I’ve heard about Windows 10X. Reading about it, it seems ambitious but also kinda risky or unrealistic to pull of, much in the same way Windows 8 with the “modern” apps failed to garner developers and reboot the Windows developer-platform and ecosystem. Maybe Microsoft concluded the same and decided to can it before investing too much in it?

jpeter 5y ago

The future of windows begins when explorer has tabs and good search