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I have to disagree that college is a waste of time. I use the advanced math and engineering skills I learned in college every day. I got hands on experience vol

I have to disagree that college is a waste of time. I use the advanced math and engineering skills I learned in college every day. I got hands on experience volunteering in labs, learned how to organize projects, practiced my presentation skills, and learned how to write better. I found college to a be very good use of my time. On the other hand, I never used SAT/ACT style "skills" again.

nickthemagicman 5y ago
The ACT/SAT literally tests geometry, algebra, vocabulary, critical thinking about a passage, and more fundamental skills. All stuff you use both in college and in the real world. Seems a little disingenuous to discount that.
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  It's not disingenuous to question whether the SAT tests skills relevant for college "worthiness" or "preparedness". -When I took the SAT, analogies made up about one quarter of the questions on the Verbal section of the SAT. I have literally never used this skill in my life. Yet wasted an enormous amount of time memorizing vocabulary and practicing this style of question. -The essay portion does not assess writing quality. It's literally write as fast as you can, as much as you can, and mention all the right things in a way for the grader to easily see that you have mentioned them. This is not quality writing. It's a race and knowing what to say. -The math section is the only section that might be a little valuable. But it only tests up to geometry and little bit of Algebra 2. Most students competitively applying to UC's have taken more math than that, so their course history and grades are a better indicator of their preparedness. So what information is the SAT actually providing to universities? In my opinion, little to nothing.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > When I took the SAT, analogies made up about one quarter of the questions on the Verbal section of the SAT. I have literally never used this skill in my life The theory was never that you literally do that contrived exercise, but that the exercise is a psychometrically valid tests of language skills that you do use. There may be legitimate challenges to that, but “I never did that exercise outside of the context of the test” isn’t even approximately one of them.
    - MyHypatia 5y ago
      My point is that the SAT does not test actual skills (as you apparently agree with) and the "psychometric abilities" that it's supposed to measure are really weak indicators for college preparedness and success. If the SAT doesn't test actual skills NOR is a good indicator for college preparedness and success. What is it actually good for? It seems to mainly make life easier for college admissions staff. At an enormous cost! Kids have to waste a bunch of time upping their "psychometric ability score". Parents should spend a bunch of time and money helping their kids improve their "psychometric ability score". Teachers should spend class time teaching to the "psychometric ability score" instead of actual material, because that's what gets kids to the next step.
      - xyzzyz 5y ago
        > and the "psychometric abilities" that it's supposed to measure are really weak indicators for college preparedness and success. That’s simply false. SAT scores are one of the best predictors of college preparedness and success.
        MyHypatia 5y ago
        No, your assertion is false. The research on SAT scores and college success show very weak correlations with SAT/ACT scores and college preparedness and success. On the positive side it seems to correlate with grades in the first year of college (1). On the negative side there was no correlation between ACT scores and college graduation (2). High school GPAs, on the other hand had a strong correlation with college success. If a metric isn't very effective at measuring what it's supposed, why collectively invest billions of dollars and hours in that metric? Just because I had to waste my time with the SAT doesn't mean we have to force that onto kids today. 1) https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/test/what.html#:~:text=The%20SAT%20has%20been%20found,student%20will%20do%20in%20college https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/test/wha.... 2) https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-...
  - CogitoCogito 5y ago
    > So what information is the SAT actually providing to universities? In my opinion, little to nothing. I feel like the same could be argued about _all_ methods that are used. Hence the combination of various methods like SATs, grades, letters of recommendation, essays, etc. Why exactly are the SATs being singled out?
    - MyHypatia 5y ago
      I think subject tests (like AP exams, or SAT II subject tests ) are much better indicators of college preparedness and success. It tests mastery in a particular subject (Spanish, chemistry, biology, calculus, ...). It shows that students can learn relevant material, and the content is useful to study anyway. The SATs try to broadly test psychometric abilities. You have to do silly tasks like pick the best analogy. So you spend time practicing tasks that measure no particular mastery of anything. Solving crossword puzzles might be a better psychometric measure (it would also test vocabulary and it's more fun, but it would make the exam look stupid). The math portion only tests up to Algebra 2. Many students have taken math beyond Algebra 2, so it doesn't even show colleges what their actual math ability is. I think grades are more relevant because they show how students performed across multiple subjects over a longer period of time. Grades are more subjective and possibly gameable. But I don't think ability to answer psychometric questions is a better metric than grades.
      - CogitoCogito 5y ago
        > I think subject tests (like AP exams, or SAT II subject tests ) are much better indicators of college preparedness and success. It tests mastery in a particular subject (Spanish, chemistry, biology, calculus, ...). It shows that students can learn relevant material, and the content is useful to study anyway. But subject tests are not actually required right? (I honestly don't know. I just looked it up and it appeared they were not.) Should they be required going forward? > The SATs try to broadly test psychometric abilities. You have to do silly tasks like pick the best analogy. So you spend time practicing tasks that measure no particular mastery of anything. Solving crossword puzzles might be a better psychometric measure (it would also test vocabulary and it's more fun, but it would make the exam look stupid). Do you know that the tests don't really correlate to future success or are you speculating here? I don't take issue with your claim that e.g. analogies are silly, but you seem to be saying that they don't really pick up any useful signal. Do you know that to be true? > The math portion only tests up to Algebra 2. Many students have taken math beyond Algebra 2, so it doesn't even show colleges what their actual math ability is. This is more of an argument for the SAT's math section to be made more difficult. > I think grades are more relevant because they show how students performed across multiple subjects over a longer period of time. Grades are more subjective and possibly gameable. But I don't think ability to answer psychometric questions is a better metric than grades. I see grades and the SATs as simply being _different_. Neither is strictly better than the other because they aren't really showing the same thing. In that case I see no reason they can't coexist.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

nickthemagicman 5y ago

The ACT/SAT literally tests geometry, algebra, vocabulary, critical thinking about a passage, and more fundamental skills. All stuff you use both in college and in the real world. Seems a little disingenuous to discount that.

MyHypatia 5y ago
It's not disingenuous to question whether the SAT tests skills relevant for college "worthiness" or "preparedness". -When I took the SAT, analogies made up about one quarter of the questions on the Verbal section of the SAT. I have literally never used this skill in my life. Yet wasted an enormous amount of time memorizing vocabulary and practicing this style of question. -The essay portion does not assess writing quality. It's literally write as fast as you can, as much as you can, and mention all the right things in a way for the grader to easily see that you have mentioned them. This is not quality writing. It's a race and knowing what to say. -The math section is the only section that might be a little valuable. But it only tests up to geometry and little bit of Algebra 2. Most students competitively applying to UC's have taken more math than that, so their course history and grades are a better indicator of their preparedness. So what information is the SAT actually providing to universities? In my opinion, little to nothing.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > When I took the SAT, analogies made up about one quarter of the questions on the Verbal section of the SAT. I have literally never used this skill in my life The theory was never that you literally do that contrived exercise, but that the exercise is a psychometrically valid tests of language skills that you do use. There may be legitimate challenges to that, but “I never did that exercise outside of the context of the test” isn’t even approximately one of them.
  - MyHypatia 5y ago
    My point is that the SAT does not test actual skills (as you apparently agree with) and the "psychometric abilities" that it's supposed to measure are really weak indicators for college preparedness and success. If the SAT doesn't test actual skills NOR is a good indicator for college preparedness and success. What is it actually good for? It seems to mainly make life easier for college admissions staff. At an enormous cost! Kids have to waste a bunch of time upping their "psychometric ability score". Parents should spend a bunch of time and money helping their kids improve their "psychometric ability score". Teachers should spend class time teaching to the "psychometric ability score" instead of actual material, because that's what gets kids to the next step.
    - xyzzyz 5y ago
      > and the "psychometric abilities" that it's supposed to measure are really weak indicators for college preparedness and success. That’s simply false. SAT scores are one of the best predictors of college preparedness and success.
      - MyHypatia 5y ago
        No, your assertion is false. The research on SAT scores and college success show very weak correlations with SAT/ACT scores and college preparedness and success. On the positive side it seems to correlate with grades in the first year of college (1). On the negative side there was no correlation between ACT scores and college graduation (2). High school GPAs, on the other hand had a strong correlation with college success. If a metric isn't very effective at measuring what it's supposed, why collectively invest billions of dollars and hours in that metric? Just because I had to waste my time with the SAT doesn't mean we have to force that onto kids today. 1) https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/test/what.html#:~:text=The%20SAT%20has%20been%20found,student%20will%20do%20in%20college https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/test/wha.... 2) https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-...
- CogitoCogito 5y ago
  > So what information is the SAT actually providing to universities? In my opinion, little to nothing. I feel like the same could be argued about _all_ methods that are used. Hence the combination of various methods like SATs, grades, letters of recommendation, essays, etc. Why exactly are the SATs being singled out?
  - MyHypatia 5y ago
    I think subject tests (like AP exams, or SAT II subject tests ) are much better indicators of college preparedness and success. It tests mastery in a particular subject (Spanish, chemistry, biology, calculus, ...). It shows that students can learn relevant material, and the content is useful to study anyway. The SATs try to broadly test psychometric abilities. You have to do silly tasks like pick the best analogy. So you spend time practicing tasks that measure no particular mastery of anything. Solving crossword puzzles might be a better psychometric measure (it would also test vocabulary and it's more fun, but it would make the exam look stupid). The math portion only tests up to Algebra 2. Many students have taken math beyond Algebra 2, so it doesn't even show colleges what their actual math ability is. I think grades are more relevant because they show how students performed across multiple subjects over a longer period of time. Grades are more subjective and possibly gameable. But I don't think ability to answer psychometric questions is a better metric than grades.
    - CogitoCogito 5y ago
      > I think subject tests (like AP exams, or SAT II subject tests ) are much better indicators of college preparedness and success. It tests mastery in a particular subject (Spanish, chemistry, biology, calculus, ...). It shows that students can learn relevant material, and the content is useful to study anyway. But subject tests are not actually required right? (I honestly don't know. I just looked it up and it appeared they were not.) Should they be required going forward? > The SATs try to broadly test psychometric abilities. You have to do silly tasks like pick the best analogy. So you spend time practicing tasks that measure no particular mastery of anything. Solving crossword puzzles might be a better psychometric measure (it would also test vocabulary and it's more fun, but it would make the exam look stupid). Do you know that the tests don't really correlate to future success or are you speculating here? I don't take issue with your claim that e.g. analogies are silly, but you seem to be saying that they don't really pick up any useful signal. Do you know that to be true? > The math portion only tests up to Algebra 2. Many students have taken math beyond Algebra 2, so it doesn't even show colleges what their actual math ability is. This is more of an argument for the SAT's math section to be made more difficult. > I think grades are more relevant because they show how students performed across multiple subjects over a longer period of time. Grades are more subjective and possibly gameable. But I don't think ability to answer psychometric questions is a better metric than grades. I see grades and the SATs as simply being _different_. Neither is strictly better than the other because they aren't really showing the same thing. In that case I see no reason they can't coexist.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]