3 ms·

> I don't think in the article I wrote about forcing people. Not explicitly, but it's essentially the consequence of not increasing language diversity in FLOSS

> I don't think in the article I wrote about forcing people. Not explicitly, but it's essentially the consequence of not increasing language diversity in FLOSS. If you want to get involved, learn English. That's the "forcing" they were talking about.

da_big_ghey 5y ago
it is a pain but force to learn once then done. if we are use the every language then many times a person must deal with this in many language. i learn english enough for to read and some write and no more. language diversity fine for culture but is suck for tech things.
- woofie11 5y ago
  I hate to say this, but: Think of the children! Seriously. American kids can start to learn to program at age 6. Non-English-speaking kids can do so once they're old enough to know English. Who do you think will have the edge? Plus, there's a ton of coding in all fields. Learning english to be a programmer is perhaps fine, but to be able to analyze data in seemingly EVERY field of endeavor? Or automate basic routine tasks? The language issue is an issue, and one worth solving.
  - da_big_ghey 5y ago
    So you are call it better to make some worse, to make the American childern start later also? Either we are having every translation for every thing or here we have the choice.
    - woofie11 5y ago
      I think we should solve this problem. It's a big lift, but so was moving ASCII to Unicode, or supporting screenreaders. Making things accessible is the right thing to do, and once the right infrastructure is in place, it's not overly expensive to sustain. Yes, I do think we should have translations for everything. We should have infrastructure to view code in multiple languages. Blockly games, Hour-of-Code, and parts of Microsoft MakeCode do this already. You flip a button and "on start" becomes "nar programmet starter" or "all'avvio." Programming is easy, since code is structured, and it's easy to parse what's a variable and what's a function call. The translation problem, outside of comments and documentation, is a lot easier than natural language. Furthermore, a lot of this stuff generalizes since the same words are used so often. Once there's a translation for "page_loaded," you can use that across many platforms. I should be able to select a drop-down, and have the same for any program I can find on github or gitlab, and edit code in my native language. It's a (huge) one-time investment. But once that investment is made, sustaining is cheap. A lot of translation works well enough automated (through Google or Amazon translate), and what doesn't translate well can be cleaned up by crowdsourcing. Google Translated comments are usually actually good enough.
  - pauloxnet 5y ago
    Thank to add this point of view about children. It's something I haven't though about but make totally sense.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > I hate to say this, but: Think of the children! > Seriously. American kids can start to learn to program at age 6. Non-English-speaking kids can do so once they're old enough to know English. I don't think that follows at all. Non-English-speaking kids can also start to learn programming at any arbitrary age. What they need to learn for that is a programming language, not English. Sure, most programming languages are subsets of English -- but extremely limited subsets. And the meanings of the words in them are (often radically) different from the original meaning of the same word in English; I suspect English-speaking learners have only a tiny initial advantage of the words being similar, but in effect have to learn them as if they were from a foreign language anyway.
    - pauloxnet 5y ago
      > Non-English-speaking kids can also start to learn programming at any arbitrary age. What they need to learn for that is a programming language, not English. I agree with that, but what I've explained in the article is that if you don't know English is harder to access English-only documentation, resources, etc... This can be changed by the community to be more inclusive, especially for newcomers, kids, ...
pauloxnet 5y ago
> If you want to get involved, learn English. Thanks for summarizing this concept. It's sad but it's true.

da_big_ghey 5y ago

it is a pain but force to learn once then done. if we are use the every language then many times a person must deal with this in many language. i learn english enough for to read and some write and no more. language diversity fine for culture but is suck for tech things.

woofie11 5y ago
I hate to say this, but: Think of the children! Seriously. American kids can start to learn to program at age 6. Non-English-speaking kids can do so once they're old enough to know English. Who do you think will have the edge? Plus, there's a ton of coding in all fields. Learning english to be a programmer is perhaps fine, but to be able to analyze data in seemingly EVERY field of endeavor? Or automate basic routine tasks? The language issue is an issue, and one worth solving.
- da_big_ghey 5y ago
  So you are call it better to make some worse, to make the American childern start later also? Either we are having every translation for every thing or here we have the choice.
  - woofie11 5y ago
    I think we should solve this problem. It's a big lift, but so was moving ASCII to Unicode, or supporting screenreaders. Making things accessible is the right thing to do, and once the right infrastructure is in place, it's not overly expensive to sustain. Yes, I do think we should have translations for everything. We should have infrastructure to view code in multiple languages. Blockly games, Hour-of-Code, and parts of Microsoft MakeCode do this already. You flip a button and "on start" becomes "nar programmet starter" or "all'avvio." Programming is easy, since code is structured, and it's easy to parse what's a variable and what's a function call. The translation problem, outside of comments and documentation, is a lot easier than natural language. Furthermore, a lot of this stuff generalizes since the same words are used so often. Once there's a translation for "page_loaded," you can use that across many platforms. I should be able to select a drop-down, and have the same for any program I can find on github or gitlab, and edit code in my native language. It's a (huge) one-time investment. But once that investment is made, sustaining is cheap. A lot of translation works well enough automated (through Google or Amazon translate), and what doesn't translate well can be cleaned up by crowdsourcing. Google Translated comments are usually actually good enough.
- pauloxnet 5y ago
  Thank to add this point of view about children. It's something I haven't though about but make totally sense.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > I hate to say this, but: Think of the children! > Seriously. American kids can start to learn to program at age 6. Non-English-speaking kids can do so once they're old enough to know English. I don't think that follows at all. Non-English-speaking kids can also start to learn programming at any arbitrary age. What they need to learn for that is a programming language, not English. Sure, most programming languages are subsets of English -- but extremely limited subsets. And the meanings of the words in them are (often radically) different from the original meaning of the same word in English; I suspect English-speaking learners have only a tiny initial advantage of the words being similar, but in effect have to learn them as if they were from a foreign language anyway.
  - pauloxnet 5y ago
    > Non-English-speaking kids can also start to learn programming at any arbitrary age. What they need to learn for that is a programming language, not English. I agree with that, but what I've explained in the article is that if you don't know English is harder to access English-only documentation, resources, etc... This can be changed by the community to be more inclusive, especially for newcomers, kids, ...

pauloxnet 5y ago

> If you want to get involved, learn English. Thanks for summarizing this concept. It's sad but it's true.