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Testing isn't perfect, but it seems like the best method, least gameable, and lowest barrier to entry compared to all the others. Essays and resumes and have no

Testing isn't perfect, but it seems like the best method, least gameable, and lowest barrier to entry compared to all the others. Essays and resumes and have no traceability back proving the applicant even did the work. GPAs and school history, AP courses is tied to the student but very school and zip code dependant.

nvrspyx 5y ago
Exactly. My high school didn’t have AP classes, the curriculum was the bare minimum for state requirements, and the grading system allowed for 5 valedictorians all with perfect 4.0s in my graduating class of 50. While I was one of them, the only thing that really made me stand out in college applications was my essays and good ACT scores. In fact, I had never even heard of AP classes and didn’t know what they were until I started applying to colleges.
MyHypatia 5y ago
I think SAT/ACT is a tragic waste of time. If you add up all the hours that all the students spend practicing questions that are not relevant to any college major or job, it's just such a sad way to force kids to spend their time instead of learning actual things. All this time wasted so that the adults can point to a number to decide which kids get in and which don't. In terms of assessment I think grades and essays are sufficient. You might be right that it's more gameable, but is it THAT much more gameable? Should we instead waste literally tens of millions of hours of people's time so that we can say that maybe we prevented some undeserving people from entering the system? If they are truly undeserving they will fail out. And if they do well, then I guess they weren't undeserving. I also think it's important to point out that in California, if you rank in the top 9% of your class you are guaranteed acceptance to a UC. It may not be your first choice, but if you don't get into your top choice, you can go to another UC and transfer, or go to a community college and transfer.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  > I think SAT/ACT is a tragic waste of time. If you add up all the hours that all the students spend practicing questions that are not relevant to any college major or job, it's just such a sad way to force kids to spend their time instead of learning actual things. All this time wasted so that the adults can point to a number to decide which kids get in and which don't. Exactly the same thing can be said about the college itself.
  - MyHypatia 5y ago
    I have to disagree that college is a waste of time. I use the advanced math and engineering skills I learned in college every day. I got hands on experience volunteering in labs, learned how to organize projects, practiced my presentation skills, and learned how to write better. I found college to a be very good use of my time. On the other hand, I never used SAT/ACT style "skills" again.
    - nickthemagicman 5y ago
      The ACT/SAT literally tests geometry, algebra, vocabulary, critical thinking about a passage, and more fundamental skills. All stuff you use both in college and in the real world. Seems a little disingenuous to discount that.
      - MyHypatia 5y ago
        It's not disingenuous to question whether the SAT tests skills relevant for college "worthiness" or "preparedness". -When I took the SAT, analogies made up about one quarter of the questions on the Verbal section of the SAT. I have literally never used this skill in my life. Yet wasted an enormous amount of time memorizing vocabulary and practicing this style of question. -The essay portion does not assess writing quality. It's literally write as fast as you can, as much as you can, and mention all the right things in a way for the grader to easily see that you have mentioned them. This is not quality writing. It's a race and knowing what to say. -The math section is the only section that might be a little valuable. But it only tests up to geometry and little bit of Algebra 2. Most students competitively applying to UC's have taken more math than that, so their course history and grades are a better indicator of their preparedness. So what information is the SAT actually providing to universities? In my opinion, little to nothing.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > When I took the SAT, analogies made up about one quarter of the questions on the Verbal section of the SAT. I have literally never used this skill in my life The theory was never that you literally do that contrived exercise, but that the exercise is a psychometrically valid tests of language skills that you do use. There may be legitimate challenges to that, but “I never did that exercise outside of the context of the test” isn’t even approximately one of them.
threatofrain 5y ago
Ending the consideration of the SAT's and ACT's doesn't mean the end of testing. I imagine passing an AP test will now be more valuable than before. Hopefully universities will take the opportunity to develop a better test, one which aligns to the major the student wishes to enter.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  This only applies for AP tests taken in 11th grade (or 10th, where possible). AP tests taken during 12th grade won't be graded — or even administered — before admissions decisions are made. Also, any argument that favors ignoring SAT/ACT scores would also apply to AP tests. In fact, the barrier to AP tests is much higher. Any kid can sign up for the SAT, get a fee waiver (if applicable), and study with books from the public library. Taking an AP test is much more complicated; I don't know if it's even possible if your school doesn't offer the course.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    You can take the AP test without the AP class, and an AP class is like a magnitude more easy than the SATs. Nobody studies for a class for years, yet on the SAT they do. On the SATs you’re studying how to memorize the ocean. With AP classes you’re taking a “college level” course that allows you to save money by skipping courses. You can’t meaningfully Khan Academy SATs, and yet it is a world class resource for standard K-12 instruction.
    - Balgair 5y ago
      > that allows you to save money by skipping courses. At least in my limited experience with the people at the UCs, the AP classes only counted toward credit hours. They did not count towards GE and Major requirements. In that, if you got a 5 on the Physics AP, you still had to take Physics I to get the GE and Major requirements [0]. Also, your score on the AP test was the credit hours you received. So a 3 on the US History AP only gave 3 credit hours, while a 5 on the Chemistry would give 5. The people I know that went through this had done so a while back. So thing may have changed, of course. [0] As in, if you needed/wanted to later take Physics II, you had to take Physics I at the UC, the AP test would not waive the requirement.
Balgair 5y ago
Forgive me if I am wrong, but aren't the UCs still required to take the top 5% of California High School graduates? Per the California Master Plan, I thought it was the top 5% for the UCs and the top 15% for the CSUs. And the top percentage was on a school by school basis, not the whole state pooled together. Meaning that students from very good high schools are looking to have a quite tough time getting in to a UC as compared to students from very bad schools. Things may have changed as it has been a while since I looked into this.

nvrspyx 5y ago

Exactly. My high school didn’t have AP classes, the curriculum was the bare minimum for state requirements, and the grading system allowed for 5 valedictorians all with perfect 4.0s in my graduating class of 50. While I was one of them, the only thing that really made me stand out in college applications was my essays and good ACT scores. In fact, I had never even heard of AP classes and didn’t know what they were until I started applying to colleges.

MyHypatia 5y ago

I think SAT/ACT is a tragic waste of time. If you add up all the hours that all the students spend practicing questions that are not relevant to any college major or job, it's just such a sad way to force kids to spend their time instead of learning actual things. All this time wasted so that the adults can point to a number to decide which kids get in and which don't. In terms of assessment I think grades and essays are sufficient. You might be right that it's more gameable, but is it THAT much more gameable? Should we instead waste literally tens of millions of hours of people's time so that we can say that maybe we prevented some undeserving people from entering the system? If they are truly undeserving they will fail out. And if they do well, then I guess they weren't undeserving. I also think it's important to point out that in California, if you rank in the top 9% of your class you are guaranteed acceptance to a UC. It may not be your first choice, but if you don't get into your top choice, you can go to another UC and transfer, or go to a community college and transfer.

xyzzyz 5y ago
> I think SAT/ACT is a tragic waste of time. If you add up all the hours that all the students spend practicing questions that are not relevant to any college major or job, it's just such a sad way to force kids to spend their time instead of learning actual things. All this time wasted so that the adults can point to a number to decide which kids get in and which don't. Exactly the same thing can be said about the college itself.
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  I have to disagree that college is a waste of time. I use the advanced math and engineering skills I learned in college every day. I got hands on experience volunteering in labs, learned how to organize projects, practiced my presentation skills, and learned how to write better. I found college to a be very good use of my time. On the other hand, I never used SAT/ACT style "skills" again.
  - nickthemagicman 5y ago
    The ACT/SAT literally tests geometry, algebra, vocabulary, critical thinking about a passage, and more fundamental skills. All stuff you use both in college and in the real world. Seems a little disingenuous to discount that.
    - MyHypatia 5y ago
      It's not disingenuous to question whether the SAT tests skills relevant for college "worthiness" or "preparedness". -When I took the SAT, analogies made up about one quarter of the questions on the Verbal section of the SAT. I have literally never used this skill in my life. Yet wasted an enormous amount of time memorizing vocabulary and practicing this style of question. -The essay portion does not assess writing quality. It's literally write as fast as you can, as much as you can, and mention all the right things in a way for the grader to easily see that you have mentioned them. This is not quality writing. It's a race and knowing what to say. -The math section is the only section that might be a little valuable. But it only tests up to geometry and little bit of Algebra 2. Most students competitively applying to UC's have taken more math than that, so their course history and grades are a better indicator of their preparedness. So what information is the SAT actually providing to universities? In my opinion, little to nothing.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > When I took the SAT, analogies made up about one quarter of the questions on the Verbal section of the SAT. I have literally never used this skill in my life The theory was never that you literally do that contrived exercise, but that the exercise is a psychometrically valid tests of language skills that you do use. There may be legitimate challenges to that, but “I never did that exercise outside of the context of the test” isn’t even approximately one of them.

threatofrain 5y ago

Ending the consideration of the SAT's and ACT's doesn't mean the end of testing. I imagine passing an AP test will now be more valuable than before. Hopefully universities will take the opportunity to develop a better test, one which aligns to the major the student wishes to enter.

gnicholas 5y ago
This only applies for AP tests taken in 11th grade (or 10th, where possible). AP tests taken during 12th grade won't be graded — or even administered — before admissions decisions are made. Also, any argument that favors ignoring SAT/ACT scores would also apply to AP tests. In fact, the barrier to AP tests is much higher. Any kid can sign up for the SAT, get a fee waiver (if applicable), and study with books from the public library. Taking an AP test is much more complicated; I don't know if it's even possible if your school doesn't offer the course.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  You can take the AP test without the AP class, and an AP class is like a magnitude more easy than the SATs. Nobody studies for a class for years, yet on the SAT they do. On the SATs you’re studying how to memorize the ocean. With AP classes you’re taking a “college level” course that allows you to save money by skipping courses. You can’t meaningfully Khan Academy SATs, and yet it is a world class resource for standard K-12 instruction.
  - Balgair 5y ago
    > that allows you to save money by skipping courses. At least in my limited experience with the people at the UCs, the AP classes only counted toward credit hours. They did not count towards GE and Major requirements. In that, if you got a 5 on the Physics AP, you still had to take Physics I to get the GE and Major requirements [0]. Also, your score on the AP test was the credit hours you received. So a 3 on the US History AP only gave 3 credit hours, while a 5 on the Chemistry would give 5. The people I know that went through this had done so a while back. So thing may have changed, of course. [0] As in, if you needed/wanted to later take Physics II, you had to take Physics I at the UC, the AP test would not waive the requirement.

Balgair 5y ago

Forgive me if I am wrong, but aren't the UCs still required to take the top 5% of California High School graduates? Per the California Master Plan, I thought it was the top 5% for the UCs and the top 15% for the CSUs. And the top percentage was on a school by school basis, not the whole state pooled together. Meaning that students from very good high schools are looking to have a quite tough time getting in to a UC as compared to students from very bad schools. Things may have changed as it has been a while since I looked into this.