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I don't think we can expect the religious instinct, found in every known human society, to just disappear. Astrology seems to be an alright stand in. It lets pe

I don't think we can expect the religious instinct, found in every known human society, to just disappear. Astrology seems to be an alright stand in. It lets people find meaning and exercise all the necessary symbolic pattern matching muscles. As mentioned in the article, sometimes she was more of a very cheaply priced therapist. Just letting people talk and feel heard. A naturopath friend of mine says something very similar. It's amazing how much better people do when they feel like they have someone to talk to who really cares and will take their time with them. The pills the patients leave with may not do much, but the 90 minutes she spent in intimate conversation with them really appears to. I think a lot of people who use these services sort of know that this is the case, even if it's not explicit in their mind.

Ansil849 5y ago
> Astrology seems to be an alright stand in. It is fraud and is a predatory practice preying on people's ignorance and gullibility. This is like saying that other flim flam artists are an 'alright stand in'. Other forms of fraud are generally outlawed. Why should this one be allowed.
- skapadia 5y ago
  Exactly. In this day and age, it's unbelievable that humans still believe in religion and astrology.
  - umvi 5y ago
    Well, until science can provide a better answer to the meaning of life than: > "That Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the débris of a universe in ruins—all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built." (Bertrand Russell) I doubt people will stop having hope that there is an an answer more fulfilling/meaningful/better than that out there somewhere.
    - autosharp 5y ago
      hope =/= stars show my destiny One can have plenty of hope for better explanations without a Jesus or astrologers.
  - dang 5y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into generic flamewar, especially not religious flamewar. That way leads to hell. Ironically enough I suppose. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
    - hyperpallium2 5y ago
      It's a shame this submission disappeared off the front page, but was OK last time it was posted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21472149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21472149 443 points 2 years ago 407 comments I found it intellectually interesting.
- autosharp 5y ago
  > It is fraud and is a predatory practice preying on people's ignorance and gullibility. Not just that, but these kinds of practices (e.g. homeopathy etc too) they specifically prey on the sick and weakest members of society.
heresie-dabord 5y ago
> I don't think we can expect the religious instinct, found in every known human society, to just disappear. Religion is not an instinct. Not on the individual level, and not on the societal level, where there is only a manifestation of principles of conformity. Optimism and sociability are intelligible enough. There is no need to introduce magical properties except to bamboozle the credulous.
- autosharp 5y ago
  It might be an instinct in the sense that language is an instinct. It just arises in every society even if you start a new one that is free of a common language / a religion.
  - heresie-dabord 5y ago
    Perhaps we need a common explanation of what you mean by _instinct_ and _religion_. Many things "arise from society", such as crime and authoritarian power structures. Are crime and authoritarian power structures instincts? That there are so many examples of mythology and other fables indicates that humans enjoy story telling. What we call _religion_ is just the mythology and fables that we stopped calling _sacred_ when the old power structure collapsed.
- klyrs 5y ago
  The "God Gene" hypothesis is an interesting one. Some think that a single gene may be responsible for a tendency towards faith -- under this hypothesis, religion would be an "instinct" to some, and not others. I'm skeptical of the specifics (e.g. that it's that one gene) but overall, I find the theory intriguing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene
  - heresie-dabord 5y ago
    "Hamer himself notes that VMAT2 plays at most a minor role in influencing spirituality.[13] Furthermore, Hamer's claim that the VMAT2 gene contributes to spirituality is controversial.[13] Hamer's study has not been published in a peer reviewed journal and a reanalysis of the correlation demonstrates that it is not statistically significant." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesicular_monoamine_transporter_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesicular_monoamine_transporte... I think what is much more likely is that there is fervour to conform and social value in appearing to conform. What people _really_ believe is clearly much more pragmatic.
lurquer 5y ago
Astrology is not a form of religion. It is a form of divination. The two concepts have little to do with each other. Christianity and Judaism have explicit prohibitions against sorcery, divination, fortune telling, etc. (I suspect it’s the same in Islam.) Folks don’t attend church to learn the future, get readings, or anything of the sort. The main religions existent today deal with working towards perfection, defined by a Supreme Being. Perhaps there is an ‘instinct’ for religion. There is certainly an ‘instinct’ for a quick-and-easy way to peer into the future. These two instincts are not the same and, in most cases, those driven by the first ‘instinct’ shun the latter and vice versa.
- Spinnaker_ 5y ago
  I didn't say it was a religion. Divination is the preformative aspect of astrology, tarrot cards, and the like. All the religions you mentioned have equally silly preformative aspects. Most folks attend church for a sense of community and to find purpose and meaning in the void of human existence. Astrology provides something similar. Obviously it is pseudoscience. But I'm not sure how much that actually matters. Like the article says, people don't really listen to what she says, they use it to confirm what they already thought, or as a frame to help organize their scattered thoughts. And just like religion, people can take it to ridiculous places.
  - lurquer 5y ago
    Not trying to argue. But, you clearly have little knowledge of religion and what motivates those with a religious outlook. That’s all. You seem to view religion and astrology on the same spectrum. That would be insulting, but it seems to be coming from a place of ignorance as opposed to malice.

Ansil849 5y ago

> Astrology seems to be an alright stand in. It is fraud and is a predatory practice preying on people's ignorance and gullibility. This is like saying that other flim flam artists are an 'alright stand in'. Other forms of fraud are generally outlawed. Why should this one be allowed.

skapadia 5y ago
Exactly. In this day and age, it's unbelievable that humans still believe in religion and astrology.
- umvi 5y ago
  Well, until science can provide a better answer to the meaning of life than: > "That Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the débris of a universe in ruins—all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built." (Bertrand Russell) I doubt people will stop having hope that there is an an answer more fulfilling/meaningful/better than that out there somewhere.
  - autosharp 5y ago
    hope =/= stars show my destiny One can have plenty of hope for better explanations without a Jesus or astrologers.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into generic flamewar, especially not religious flamewar. That way leads to hell. Ironically enough I suppose. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
  - hyperpallium2 5y ago
    It's a shame this submission disappeared off the front page, but was OK last time it was posted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21472149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21472149 443 points 2 years ago 407 comments I found it intellectually interesting.
autosharp 5y ago
> It is fraud and is a predatory practice preying on people's ignorance and gullibility. Not just that, but these kinds of practices (e.g. homeopathy etc too) they specifically prey on the sick and weakest members of society.

heresie-dabord 5y ago

> I don't think we can expect the religious instinct, found in every known human society, to just disappear. Religion is not an instinct. Not on the individual level, and not on the societal level, where there is only a manifestation of principles of conformity. Optimism and sociability are intelligible enough. There is no need to introduce magical properties except to bamboozle the credulous.

autosharp 5y ago
It might be an instinct in the sense that language is an instinct. It just arises in every society even if you start a new one that is free of a common language / a religion.
- heresie-dabord 5y ago
  Perhaps we need a common explanation of what you mean by _instinct_ and _religion_. Many things "arise from society", such as crime and authoritarian power structures. Are crime and authoritarian power structures instincts? That there are so many examples of mythology and other fables indicates that humans enjoy story telling. What we call _religion_ is just the mythology and fables that we stopped calling _sacred_ when the old power structure collapsed.
klyrs 5y ago
The "God Gene" hypothesis is an interesting one. Some think that a single gene may be responsible for a tendency towards faith -- under this hypothesis, religion would be an "instinct" to some, and not others. I'm skeptical of the specifics (e.g. that it's that one gene) but overall, I find the theory intriguing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene
- heresie-dabord 5y ago
  "Hamer himself notes that VMAT2 plays at most a minor role in influencing spirituality.[13] Furthermore, Hamer's claim that the VMAT2 gene contributes to spirituality is controversial.[13] Hamer's study has not been published in a peer reviewed journal and a reanalysis of the correlation demonstrates that it is not statistically significant." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesicular_monoamine_transporter_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesicular_monoamine_transporte... I think what is much more likely is that there is fervour to conform and social value in appearing to conform. What people _really_ believe is clearly much more pragmatic.

lurquer 5y ago

Astrology is not a form of religion. It is a form of divination. The two concepts have little to do with each other. Christianity and Judaism have explicit prohibitions against sorcery, divination, fortune telling, etc. (I suspect it’s the same in Islam.) Folks don’t attend church to learn the future, get readings, or anything of the sort. The main religions existent today deal with working towards perfection, defined by a Supreme Being. Perhaps there is an ‘instinct’ for religion. There is certainly an ‘instinct’ for a quick-and-easy way to peer into the future. These two instincts are not the same and, in most cases, those driven by the first ‘instinct’ shun the latter and vice versa.

Spinnaker_ 5y ago
I didn't say it was a religion. Divination is the preformative aspect of astrology, tarrot cards, and the like. All the religions you mentioned have equally silly preformative aspects. Most folks attend church for a sense of community and to find purpose and meaning in the void of human existence. Astrology provides something similar. Obviously it is pseudoscience. But I'm not sure how much that actually matters. Like the article says, people don't really listen to what she says, they use it to confirm what they already thought, or as a frame to help organize their scattered thoughts. And just like religion, people can take it to ridiculous places.
- lurquer 5y ago
  Not trying to argue. But, you clearly have little knowledge of religion and what motivates those with a religious outlook. That’s all. You seem to view religion and astrology on the same spectrum. That would be insulting, but it seems to be coming from a place of ignorance as opposed to malice.