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So many people are bringing up TypeScript here as an example of how JavaScript isn't so bad. I kinda feel like that's cheating. Like saying eggs are absolutely

So many people are bringing up TypeScript here as an example of how JavaScript isn't so bad. I kinda feel like that's cheating. Like saying eggs are absolutely delicious when baked into a cake - you're praising something after it has been turned into an entirely different product. Maybe TypeScript is great, but I just don't like the idea of depending on transpilers to not suck when creating the final code, and also having to debug that transpiled code, and then the whole transpilation step in between the standard command-S-command-tab-command-R workflow (this is also why I never use SASS/LESS if I don't have to). Once JS itself has strict typing and real classes, and enough time has passed that I can be assured 95% of people using five-year-old browsers will be able to use it, then we can talk about the wonders of JavaScript. Until then I don't get why anyone would use it (or anything that transpiles to it) when there are so many better alternatives for server-side development. Let's not even get started with Electron.

osmarks 5y ago
Why is the transpilation step an issue? You can set it up to happen whenever the file is changed with most things.
- cesarb 5y ago
  Because it's no longer the same language. You're not programming in JavaScript, you're programming in TypeScript, which happens to be compiled to something JavaScript engines accept. All the praise towards TypeScript does not necessarily apply to JavaScript. It would be like praising Assembly while you're actually programming in C.
  - goodoldneon 5y ago
    AFAIK, the only difference between TS and JS is types. TS doesn't give you anything that's functionally different than JS -- only types that are stripped during compilation. You can't perform any logic on types at all (e.g. you can't have conditional logic based on interfaces). Comparing assembly/C to JS/TS doesn't make sense.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      Yeah, and the only difference between C and machine code is that C hasn't been compiled yet. The comparison makes perfect sense.
      - goodoldneon 5y ago
        Writing TypeScript is like writing JavaScript but with type annotations. Writing C is not like writing assembly with type annotations.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        > Writing TypeScript is like writing JavaScript but... ...but different. > Writing C is not like writing assembly... ...it's different.
- Cyberdog 5y ago
  With most things, yes, if the implementation for that feature supports your operating system, and it doesn't take long enough to be noticeable, and there's no weird caching issues at any given level, then yes, it's transparent in that case. Or you could just write the JS directly and be done with it.
Waterluvian 5y ago
People occasionally rely on compilers. I don't really see this as much different. At the end of the day all I care about is if I build the products and solve the problems I'm hired to do. Beyond maintainability, the "engineering" stuff is a distraction we need to be careful not to obsess over.
- lanstin 5y ago
  Well yes. But as the problem solver, there is nothing better than when someone has a problem, and you have a solution ready at hand which came from lambda calculus or distributed systems tricks or some crazy shit from On Lisp. That is why they are paying you, not to cranks out good dutiful straightforward solutions but for clever ideas that are simple to implement and operate. The engineering is both awareness and skill in following processes to get great cheap and effective solutions. Otherwise you end up with 20 million lines of code and all the aesthetically sensitive people have have to leave the company.
mnahkies 5y ago
> I just don't like the idea of depending on transpilers to not suck when creating the final code How does this differ from trusting a compiler or interpreter? Every language has to be translated to machine code in some way.
- Cyberdog 5y ago
  > How does this differ from trusting a compiler or interpreter? When was the last time you found a bug and it was the compiler or interpreter's fault? At any rate, the big difference is debugging, as I mentioned above. How fun is it to debug code which you only kind of indirectly wrote?
  - mnahkies 5y ago
    The code output by typescript is generally pretty readable depending on the target, and the source mapping works very well regardless. The debuggers in all major browsers and ides handle it fine. I've not come across any bugs caused by typescript itself in the time I've been using it since 2014, and my point was that this is the same for c or any other language - how fun is it to debug assembly you only kind of wrote
Vinnl 5y ago
Given that people are usually already using Babel, TypeScript isn't really any different than running a linter is. There's no additional transpilation step if you write your code in TS, but you can also run TypeScript to have it warn you of potential errors.

osmarks 5y ago

Why is the transpilation step an issue? You can set it up to happen whenever the file is changed with most things.

cesarb 5y ago
Because it's no longer the same language. You're not programming in JavaScript, you're programming in TypeScript, which happens to be compiled to something JavaScript engines accept. All the praise towards TypeScript does not necessarily apply to JavaScript. It would be like praising Assembly while you're actually programming in C.
- goodoldneon 5y ago
  AFAIK, the only difference between TS and JS is types. TS doesn't give you anything that's functionally different than JS -- only types that are stripped during compilation. You can't perform any logic on types at all (e.g. you can't have conditional logic based on interfaces). Comparing assembly/C to JS/TS doesn't make sense.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Yeah, and the only difference between C and machine code is that C hasn't been compiled yet. The comparison makes perfect sense.
    - goodoldneon 5y ago
      Writing TypeScript is like writing JavaScript but with type annotations. Writing C is not like writing assembly with type annotations.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        > Writing TypeScript is like writing JavaScript but... ...but different. > Writing C is not like writing assembly... ...it's different.
Cyberdog 5y ago
With most things, yes, if the implementation for that feature supports your operating system, and it doesn't take long enough to be noticeable, and there's no weird caching issues at any given level, then yes, it's transparent in that case. Or you could just write the JS directly and be done with it.

Waterluvian 5y ago

People occasionally rely on compilers. I don't really see this as much different. At the end of the day all I care about is if I build the products and solve the problems I'm hired to do. Beyond maintainability, the "engineering" stuff is a distraction we need to be careful not to obsess over.

lanstin 5y ago
Well yes. But as the problem solver, there is nothing better than when someone has a problem, and you have a solution ready at hand which came from lambda calculus or distributed systems tricks or some crazy shit from On Lisp. That is why they are paying you, not to cranks out good dutiful straightforward solutions but for clever ideas that are simple to implement and operate. The engineering is both awareness and skill in following processes to get great cheap and effective solutions. Otherwise you end up with 20 million lines of code and all the aesthetically sensitive people have have to leave the company.

mnahkies 5y ago

> I just don't like the idea of depending on transpilers to not suck when creating the final code How does this differ from trusting a compiler or interpreter? Every language has to be translated to machine code in some way.

Cyberdog 5y ago
> How does this differ from trusting a compiler or interpreter? When was the last time you found a bug and it was the compiler or interpreter's fault? At any rate, the big difference is debugging, as I mentioned above. How fun is it to debug code which you only kind of indirectly wrote?
- mnahkies 5y ago
  The code output by typescript is generally pretty readable depending on the target, and the source mapping works very well regardless. The debuggers in all major browsers and ides handle it fine. I've not come across any bugs caused by typescript itself in the time I've been using it since 2014, and my point was that this is the same for c or any other language - how fun is it to debug assembly you only kind of wrote

Vinnl 5y ago

Given that people are usually already using Babel, TypeScript isn't really any different than running a linter is. There's no additional transpilation step if you write your code in TS, but you can also run TypeScript to have it warn you of potential errors.