4 ms·

The distinction between when Zionist is acceptable is bizarre. If someone acts on the ideology, you can't criticize them but if they don't act it's fine? I'd gu

The distinction between when Zionist is acceptable is bizarre. If someone acts on the ideology, you can't criticize them but if they don't act it's fine? I'd guess that their excuse would be that only Israeli's could be responsible for the forced expulsion of Palestinians while anyone can be a Zionist but it just seems backwards to me.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago
I'm a pretty staunch critic of Israel's actions overall, but I shy away from using the word Zionist, because I think it's too bound up and associated with the language used by some serious anti-Semites. And no, I don't think criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic, but anti-Semitism is still out there (and growing again it seems), and often starts with legitimate criticism of Israel and then crosses lines. I don't really want to make fellow company with some of the people who make a point of using the word as their focal point of attack. It's far too easy to lose nuance in this discussion.
- chongli 6y ago
  Yeah. The word has taken on the connotations of a slur. Serious, charitable, good-faith critics, of any government (or any group, for that matter), should avoid slurs like the plague. Stick with criticizing policies. The government of Israel should be criticized but that has nothing to do with who they are, only what they do.
  - renjimen 6y ago
    This is a good point. The dictionary contains definitions but misses social context, which changes over time. Just like the language we use for disability, racial identity, or any other emotionally charged subject.
- speeder 6y ago
  Although I have a great-grandparents that were ethnic hebrews... I must say that I am not surprised anti-semitism is growing, considering many people now considered "villains" for whatever reason ARE jewish. The average human is a simple creature and quickly create some heuristics of the kind: "if a bunch of people from certain group is evil, then the whole group is evil". Doesn't help that it is very hard to find neutral ground too, for example Austria was supposed to be the neutral ground for negotiations between Iran and US in the Iran vs Israel nuke conflict, then they went ahead and hoisted Israeli flags. Iran now is sending their delegation home basically.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    "I am not surprised anti-semitism is growing, considering many people now considered "villains" for whatever reason ARE jewish." Depending on your politics, pick your villains: - Trump - Bush Jr - Putin - Kim Jong-un - Ayatollah Khomeini - Obama - Hillary Clinton None of these people, who are considered some of the world's biggest villains by huge numbers of people, are (to my knowledge) Jewish.
    - speeder 6y ago
      I was talking about Jeffrey Epstein, Ivanka Trump, Zuckerberg, Netanyahu, Soros, Larry Ellison, Joseph Safra, and the list keeps and keeps going. See, you listed some politicians, but many "common" people don't care about these people. People DO care about their privacy when they are using applications that literally affect the whole planet, they DO care about pedophiles living nearby (for example whoever lived near Epstein or Maxwells), people DO care about a whole economy tanking because of corrupt shenanigans (what Safra did) and so on. Even then you are not totally wrong, a lot of people think all north koreans are evil, because of their leadership, a lot of people think all iranians are evil, because of their leadership... Well, in USA seemly both halves of the country believe the other half is evil because they voted for Trump or Hillary.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
        You cherry-picked a bunch of names out of the world's population of thousands of wealthy influential people, and you cherry-picked the people that happen to be Jewish (or married to Jewish people?) and used that selection of names to support... what? Some implication that there's some Jewish pedophiles or economy manipulators? Sorry, this is bordering on "elders of zion" garbage -- "Rothschilds" "World banking conspiracy" blah blah blah, it is a kind of dog whistling going back to the 1930s and earlier, and it's repulsive. And basically, what you just performed here is classic anti-Semitism, even if you don't recognize it.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  While I also tend not to use the word, what other word would you use for the people colonizing your home? Keeping in mind that the reason Zionist is forbidden is that it could only mean "Israeli," so that word is presumably also not acceptable there.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

I'm a pretty staunch critic of Israel's actions overall, but I shy away from using the word Zionist, because I think it's too bound up and associated with the language used by some serious anti-Semites. And no, I don't think criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic, but anti-Semitism is still out there (and growing again it seems), and often starts with legitimate criticism of Israel and then crosses lines. I don't really want to make fellow company with some of the people who make a point of using the word as their focal point of attack. It's far too easy to lose nuance in this discussion.

chongli 6y ago
Yeah. The word has taken on the connotations of a slur. Serious, charitable, good-faith critics, of any government (or any group, for that matter), should avoid slurs like the plague. Stick with criticizing policies. The government of Israel should be criticized but that has nothing to do with who they are, only what they do.
- renjimen 6y ago
  This is a good point. The dictionary contains definitions but misses social context, which changes over time. Just like the language we use for disability, racial identity, or any other emotionally charged subject.
speeder 6y ago
Although I have a great-grandparents that were ethnic hebrews... I must say that I am not surprised anti-semitism is growing, considering many people now considered "villains" for whatever reason ARE jewish. The average human is a simple creature and quickly create some heuristics of the kind: "if a bunch of people from certain group is evil, then the whole group is evil". Doesn't help that it is very hard to find neutral ground too, for example Austria was supposed to be the neutral ground for negotiations between Iran and US in the Iran vs Israel nuke conflict, then they went ahead and hoisted Israeli flags. Iran now is sending their delegation home basically.
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  "I am not surprised anti-semitism is growing, considering many people now considered "villains" for whatever reason ARE jewish." Depending on your politics, pick your villains: - Trump - Bush Jr - Putin - Kim Jong-un - Ayatollah Khomeini - Obama - Hillary Clinton None of these people, who are considered some of the world's biggest villains by huge numbers of people, are (to my knowledge) Jewish.
  - speeder 6y ago
    I was talking about Jeffrey Epstein, Ivanka Trump, Zuckerberg, Netanyahu, Soros, Larry Ellison, Joseph Safra, and the list keeps and keeps going. See, you listed some politicians, but many "common" people don't care about these people. People DO care about their privacy when they are using applications that literally affect the whole planet, they DO care about pedophiles living nearby (for example whoever lived near Epstein or Maxwells), people DO care about a whole economy tanking because of corrupt shenanigans (what Safra did) and so on. Even then you are not totally wrong, a lot of people think all north koreans are evil, because of their leadership, a lot of people think all iranians are evil, because of their leadership... Well, in USA seemly both halves of the country believe the other half is evil because they voted for Trump or Hillary.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
      You cherry-picked a bunch of names out of the world's population of thousands of wealthy influential people, and you cherry-picked the people that happen to be Jewish (or married to Jewish people?) and used that selection of names to support... what? Some implication that there's some Jewish pedophiles or economy manipulators? Sorry, this is bordering on "elders of zion" garbage -- "Rothschilds" "World banking conspiracy" blah blah blah, it is a kind of dog whistling going back to the 1930s and earlier, and it's repulsive. And basically, what you just performed here is classic anti-Semitism, even if you don't recognize it.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
While I also tend not to use the word, what other word would you use for the people colonizing your home? Keeping in mind that the reason Zionist is forbidden is that it could only mean "Israeli," so that word is presumably also not acceptable there.