5 ms·

when I read about the model of prison they have in Denmark, I wondered if it's feasible to have that everywhere. Cost might be the biggest problem.

by nsonha 5y ago

ceejayoz 5y ago
Cost per year of incarceration isn’t the only metric; if more humane and expensive jails lead to reductions in reoffense rates, it can pay for itself quite handily.
- Jabbles 5y ago
  Total monetary cost to society isn't the only metric; there is intrinsic value in having a more humane prison system.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    > there is intrinsic value in having a more humane prison system. Not if you're a believer in "harsh punishment", "law and order!!!", "eye for an eye" and similar Evangelical barbarism like way too many Americans are.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Many see prisons as a way of punishment. Providing any comfort will makes some people upset. Society must be educated to the purpose of prison before any of this is possible.
    - johnchristopher 5y ago
      Prisoners themselves can use the usual sentence "I paid my debt to society" with different meanings. Personally I see great benefits in locking up people guilty of violent crimes, shielding society from the consequences of their actions. Then the system can - as soon as the person is incarcerated - begin to work on rehabilitation.
      - nsonha 5y ago
        I think the Australia model is pretty good (a country for convicts) (take it easy, I'm Australian)
    - slibhb 5y ago
      "Society" can't be "educated" because there's simple a disagreement here. Some people indeed see prison as a punishment and others see prison as a means of improving society.
      - BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
        Indeed, and I suspect that the fundamental factor in how people view prison is based on their personalities. Conservative people are fundamentally more risk averse than Liberal people. “Educate” me all you want about rehabilitation, but when I hear that a man murdered two people with a knife and slashed six others, I’m going to think that man needs to be locked up for life because he’s too much of a risk to innocent people. Conversely, I can lecture a liberal person all day about how dangerous these people can be and they’ll think that these people deserve a chance at being let back into society.
        ipaddr 5y ago
        Why not enforce a quick death penalty. Putting someone away for 2, 5, 10, 20 or 30 years and just letting them back into society seems more dangerous compared to trying to change those behaviours before letting them go free.
        nsonha 5y ago
        Not always the case Also if they are alive they still have a chance to fight if they're wrongly convicted.
        slibhb 5y ago
        I'd frame it in a different way. Conservatives argue for punishment as deterrence and to keep society safe from criminals. Liberals argue for punishment as rehabilitation and are happy to abandon punishment if it is shown to not rehabilitate. Both of these are utilitarian arguments. A third position is: criminals deserve to be punished in proportion to the crime committed because a society that does not punish criminals is not worth living in. The definition of a crime is a transgression that must be punished, whatever the consequences.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    I agree entirely, but the cost arguments are useful for the folks who see improved prisoner well-being as a neutral or even negative aspect.
  - nsonha 5y ago
    no one said cost was a metric, it's a barrier
- cercatrova 5y ago
  But then how are those poor, poor private prisons going to make any money?
pasquinelli 5y ago
i can tell you that in the united states we have an abundance of money, so cost isn't the problem here.
- gumby 5y ago
  Abundance for punishment, yes. Little for helping others.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    If you ask an American expert in punishing and hurting people, here's what they say: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/424263-trump-supporter-complains-shutdown-is-not-hurting-the-people-he https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/424263-tru... >Trump supporter complains shutdown is 'not hurting the people he needs to be hurting' >A prison employee in Florida who voted for President Trump argued that Trump is to blame for the current government shutdown. >“I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this,” Crystal Minton told The New York Times in an article published Monday. “I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shu... >Though Mr. Trump said on Twitter over the weekend that “most of the workers not getting paid are Democrats,” that is far from true in places like Jackson County, Fla., where Marianna is the county seat. It is a Republican bastion so deeply conservative that it was illegal to sell liquor by the drink until November 2017. The president and his plan for a wall along the border are popular here, as they are across much of the state, which might explain why Florida Republicans in Congress have done little to pressure party leaders in the Senate to put an end to the shutdown.
kergonath 5y ago
Cost not going into the pocket of big companies might be an even bigger problem.
colordrops 5y ago
Cost would be a problem because we put too many people in prison.
bubbleRefuge 5y ago
Money is not a problem at the Federal level. We just spent around what, $6T, on Covid inspired programs and we are gearing up for an infrastructure bill on the order of 1 to 2T more. There are no true money/affordability constraints. The real constraints are on capacity to produce. Its not can we afford things, its can we build or buy the things we want.
tomjen3 5y ago
Dane here. It is a system where I could rape somebody and be out quicker than they would have time to heal. i don't think that is something to emulate. By al means have the space for people to fuck up. But some people are not suitable to live in society again.
Lev1a 5y ago
Or this talk about one of Denmarks neighbours (Germany) by an American, Jewish, (grand-)son of Holocaust survivors visiting a German prison with a bunch of other Americans ("60 Minutes" reporter, some Governor, a DA, a convicted murderer etc.). A bunch of stats and comparisons to underline the effects of different prison systems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtV5ev6813I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtV5ev6813I And the related segment from "60 Minutes": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOmcP9sMwIE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOmcP9sMwIE

when I read about the model of prison they have in Denmark, I wondered if it's feasible to have that everywhere. Cost might be the biggest problem.

by nsonha 5y ago

when I read about the model of prison they have in Denmark, I wondered if it's feasible to have that everywhere. Cost might be the biggest problem.

ceejayoz 5y ago

Cost per year of incarceration isn’t the only metric; if more humane and expensive jails lead to reductions in reoffense rates, it can pay for itself quite handily.

Jabbles 5y ago
Total monetary cost to society isn't the only metric; there is intrinsic value in having a more humane prison system.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > there is intrinsic value in having a more humane prison system. Not if you're a believer in "harsh punishment", "law and order!!!", "eye for an eye" and similar Evangelical barbarism like way too many Americans are.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Many see prisons as a way of punishment. Providing any comfort will makes some people upset. Society must be educated to the purpose of prison before any of this is possible.
  - johnchristopher 5y ago
    Prisoners themselves can use the usual sentence "I paid my debt to society" with different meanings. Personally I see great benefits in locking up people guilty of violent crimes, shielding society from the consequences of their actions. Then the system can - as soon as the person is incarcerated - begin to work on rehabilitation.
    - nsonha 5y ago
      I think the Australia model is pretty good (a country for convicts) (take it easy, I'm Australian)
  - slibhb 5y ago
    "Society" can't be "educated" because there's simple a disagreement here. Some people indeed see prison as a punishment and others see prison as a means of improving society.
    - BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
      Indeed, and I suspect that the fundamental factor in how people view prison is based on their personalities. Conservative people are fundamentally more risk averse than Liberal people. “Educate” me all you want about rehabilitation, but when I hear that a man murdered two people with a knife and slashed six others, I’m going to think that man needs to be locked up for life because he’s too much of a risk to innocent people. Conversely, I can lecture a liberal person all day about how dangerous these people can be and they’ll think that these people deserve a chance at being let back into society.
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        Why not enforce a quick death penalty. Putting someone away for 2, 5, 10, 20 or 30 years and just letting them back into society seems more dangerous compared to trying to change those behaviours before letting them go free.
        nsonha 5y ago
        Not always the case Also if they are alive they still have a chance to fight if they're wrongly convicted.
      - slibhb 5y ago
        I'd frame it in a different way. Conservatives argue for punishment as deterrence and to keep society safe from criminals. Liberals argue for punishment as rehabilitation and are happy to abandon punishment if it is shown to not rehabilitate. Both of these are utilitarian arguments. A third position is: criminals deserve to be punished in proportion to the crime committed because a society that does not punish criminals is not worth living in. The definition of a crime is a transgression that must be punished, whatever the consequences.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  I agree entirely, but the cost arguments are useful for the folks who see improved prisoner well-being as a neutral or even negative aspect.
- nsonha 5y ago
  no one said cost was a metric, it's a barrier
cercatrova 5y ago
But then how are those poor, poor private prisons going to make any money?

pasquinelli 5y ago

i can tell you that in the united states we have an abundance of money, so cost isn't the problem here.

gumby 5y ago
Abundance for punishment, yes. Little for helping others.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  If you ask an American expert in punishing and hurting people, here's what they say: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/424263-trump-supporter-complains-shutdown-is-not-hurting-the-people-he https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/424263-tru... >Trump supporter complains shutdown is 'not hurting the people he needs to be hurting' >A prison employee in Florida who voted for President Trump argued that Trump is to blame for the current government shutdown. >“I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this,” Crystal Minton told The New York Times in an article published Monday. “I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shu... >Though Mr. Trump said on Twitter over the weekend that “most of the workers not getting paid are Democrats,” that is far from true in places like Jackson County, Fla., where Marianna is the county seat. It is a Republican bastion so deeply conservative that it was illegal to sell liquor by the drink until November 2017. The president and his plan for a wall along the border are popular here, as they are across much of the state, which might explain why Florida Republicans in Congress have done little to pressure party leaders in the Senate to put an end to the shutdown.

kergonath 5y ago

Cost not going into the pocket of big companies might be an even bigger problem.

colordrops 5y ago

Cost would be a problem because we put too many people in prison.

bubbleRefuge 5y ago

Money is not a problem at the Federal level. We just spent around what, $6T, on Covid inspired programs and we are gearing up for an infrastructure bill on the order of 1 to 2T more. There are no true money/affordability constraints. The real constraints are on capacity to produce. Its not can we afford things, its can we build or buy the things we want.

tomjen3 5y ago

Dane here. It is a system where I could rape somebody and be out quicker than they would have time to heal. i don't think that is something to emulate. By al means have the space for people to fuck up. But some people are not suitable to live in society again.

Lev1a 5y ago

Or this talk about one of Denmarks neighbours (Germany) by an American, Jewish, (grand-)son of Holocaust survivors visiting a German prison with a bunch of other Americans ("60 Minutes" reporter, some Governor, a DA, a convicted murderer etc.). A bunch of stats and comparisons to underline the effects of different prison systems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtV5ev6813I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtV5ev6813I And the related segment from "60 Minutes": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOmcP9sMwIE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOmcP9sMwIE