6 ms·

Is it really stealing when the individuals who did the work for America voluntarily left Germany due to its foray into authoritarianism? Seems more like a windf

Is it really stealing when the individuals who did the work for America voluntarily left Germany due to its foray into authoritarianism? Seems more like a windfall for a country with better human rights than a theft, to me.

finnh 5y ago
That's not quite how it went down - the really top guys were running the show in Nazi Germany until the very end, and only came to the US after Germany lost the war. See siblings comments about Mittelwerk, eg. Also Chabon's (fictional) novel Moonglow covers some of this history well.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  The question is, were they allowed to leave Germany when the regime was still in place?
adolph 5y ago
Operation Paperclip was a secret US intelligence program in which more than 1,600 Nazi scientists, engineers, and technicians were taken from Nazi Germany to the United States for government employment after the end of World War II in Europe, primarily between 1945 and 1959. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
- freshair 5y ago
  "were taken" suggests they had no say in the matter, which is not true at least in the case of many. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun#Surrender_to_the_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun#Surrender_to...
  - adolph 5y ago
    I think the phrase has several interpretations. The most basic is conveyance without judgement of human motives. To the extent that high value workers knew that they were treasure to be looted they might have decided that the US was a least worse option.
    - freshair 5y ago
      > To the extent that high value workers knew that they were treasure to be looted they might have decided that the US was a least worse option. Yes, that lines up with von Braun's account of his motivations. > We knew that we had created a new means of warfare, and the question as to what nation, to what victorious nation we were willing to entrust this brainchild of ours was a moral decision more than anything else. We wanted to see the world spared another conflict such as Germany had just been through, and we felt that only by surrendering such a weapon to people who are guided not by the laws of materialism but by Christianity and humanity could such an assurance to the world be best secured. I'm not particularly convinced by this man's praise of America and talk of Christianity, I think he was brown-nosing just a little bit... but it does seem clear he preferred America to the Soviets.
      - adolph 5y ago
        We wanted to see the world spared another conflict such as Germany had just been through He really write that? That’s some chutzpah. Also interesting is that the V-2 missile was called a “ vengeance weapon” [0] but Allied bombing of Germany hadn’t started when the V-2 started. [1] On 22 December 1942, Adolf Hitler ordered the production of the A-4 as a "vengeance weapon", and the Peenemünde group developed it to target London. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_operations_during_the_Battle_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_operations_during_...
        genera1 5y ago
        Allied bombings of Germany began in 1939, the information is even present in the Wikipedia link you provided. V-2 launches against Allies started in September 1944, well after commencement of large scale strategic bombing of German cities, and the name was given to it after successful test launches, also in 1944.

finnh 5y ago

That's not quite how it went down - the really top guys were running the show in Nazi Germany until the very end, and only came to the US after Germany lost the war. See siblings comments about Mittelwerk, eg. Also Chabon's (fictional) novel Moonglow covers some of this history well.

908B64B197 5y ago
The question is, were they allowed to leave Germany when the regime was still in place?

adolph 5y ago

Operation Paperclip was a secret US intelligence program in which more than 1,600 Nazi scientists, engineers, and technicians were taken from Nazi Germany to the United States for government employment after the end of World War II in Europe, primarily between 1945 and 1959. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

freshair 5y ago
"were taken" suggests they had no say in the matter, which is not true at least in the case of many. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun#Surrender_to_the_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun#Surrender_to...
- adolph 5y ago
  I think the phrase has several interpretations. The most basic is conveyance without judgement of human motives. To the extent that high value workers knew that they were treasure to be looted they might have decided that the US was a least worse option.
  - freshair 5y ago
    > To the extent that high value workers knew that they were treasure to be looted they might have decided that the US was a least worse option. Yes, that lines up with von Braun's account of his motivations. > We knew that we had created a new means of warfare, and the question as to what nation, to what victorious nation we were willing to entrust this brainchild of ours was a moral decision more than anything else. We wanted to see the world spared another conflict such as Germany had just been through, and we felt that only by surrendering such a weapon to people who are guided not by the laws of materialism but by Christianity and humanity could such an assurance to the world be best secured. I'm not particularly convinced by this man's praise of America and talk of Christianity, I think he was brown-nosing just a little bit... but it does seem clear he preferred America to the Soviets.
    - adolph 5y ago
      We wanted to see the world spared another conflict such as Germany had just been through He really write that? That’s some chutzpah. Also interesting is that the V-2 missile was called a “ vengeance weapon” [0] but Allied bombing of Germany hadn’t started when the V-2 started. [1] On 22 December 1942, Adolf Hitler ordered the production of the A-4 as a "vengeance weapon", and the Peenemünde group developed it to target London. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_operations_during_the_Battle_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_operations_during_...
      - genera1 5y ago
        Allied bombings of Germany began in 1939, the information is even present in the Wikipedia link you provided. V-2 launches against Allies started in September 1944, well after commencement of large scale strategic bombing of German cities, and the name was given to it after successful test launches, also in 1944.