4 ms·

They steal research from "the many countries" that haven't been to Mars? That seems quite an odd accusation. You just handwave the need for evidence away as if

They steal research from "the many countries" that haven't been to Mars? That seems quite an odd accusation. You just handwave the need for evidence away as if such an accusation can be assumed to be true. Arresting people on charge of espionage doesn't mean that those people actually engaged in espionage: proper due process must be finished first before that conclusion can be drawn. Also, stealing trade secrets in certain areas has got nothing to do with stealing secrets in space technology, so it's whataboutism at best. How exactly are they supposed to steal research when they've been banned from space collaboration programs? Assuming that even if they did manage to steal some research, how can that strategy possibly be more successful than countries that haven't been banned from collaboration? That makes absolutely no sense. No, China developed their space technology on their own, with their own research, by their own hard work. This is the result of accusing them of stealing and banning them: they go their own way, successfully.

hellbannedguy 5y ago
I'm to tired for a debate, but this is a start: https://defense.info/re-thinking-strategy/2020/10/the-fight-against-chinas-theft-of-space-technology/ https://defense.info/re-thinking-strategy/2020/10/the-fight-...
- simion314 5y ago
  FYI , you know that US was caught spying on other countries, including economical espionage(on Airbus) and I remember I seen recently some video about US getting access to some Russian equipment and the hyper patriotic narrator ... now imagine I would invent some stupid accusation that SpaceX is built on tech stolent from Russia and airbus without any proof just some unrelated links about that a guy maybe stole some seeds or some documents that you can't trust because of the political and racist environment in US. If the tech is stolen I suggest you either do some better work on presenting this or better wait for someone less lazy, more competent and with more knowledge in this domain to do it. Some US gov employee could either show or fabricate better evidence then you.
  - mike_d 5y ago
    There is quite a bit of whataboutism when Chinese espionage comes up, however the key difference is that the government has a financial interest in most companies and often shares loot from foreign competitors with local businesses. Yes, the US, Russia, France, etc. do this too. The big difference is when the government gives Lockheed the design plans for a new Chinese fighter jet the goal is to develop countermeasures and defeats for its technology, not to clone it outright.
    - hulitu 5y ago
      Nobody is cloning outright. They are all improving. It it not like a copy-paste. More like a clipboard exploit.
    - simion314 5y ago
      My issue with this comments here is, do you have any proof? China made a rover with 6 wheels and this means it is stolen? WTF is the "round corners" issue again? I would like to see something more real, like Patent 1234 "Mars rover with metal wheels" then show how China somwhow broke this ridiculous patent. OR show that US rover contains some super secret tech that is also present in China stuff. As far as I know China can send his smartest people in US, EU or other countries to learn advanced stuff then bring them back in have them teach in their universities. Combine that with a large population and a hard working people that have respect for science I can easily see them getting number one in sciences and tech. IMO, keeping things secrets is not a valid long term strategy, look at the Apple new CPU/GPU people are reverse engineering it fast. The only thing Apple can do is put tons of patents (including shit ones) and then FUD everyone with their army of lawyers. There was a post yesterday I think about someone implementing a similar algorithm with the SpaceXs one to vertical land a virtual rocket, see is possible to implement a similar looking thing without sending a commando of guys and steal tech.
      - mike_d 5y ago
        A great example is the Chengdu J-20, which was a direct clone of the F-22 using plans stolen from Lockheed Martin. The J-31 is heavily inspired by but not a complete clone of the F-35 because the latter was still under heavy development when the plans were stolen. (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-national-who-conspired-hack-us-defense-contractors-systems-sentenced-46-months https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-national-who-conspire...) The J-15 is a clone of the Russian Su-33, reverse engineered from a physical jet they obtained from Ukraine. The only real modifications are the use of lighter composite materials so that the inferior launchers on Chinese carriers could get them in the air. (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/high-cost-china-paying-copying-stolen-su-33-russian-jet-fighter-118486 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/high-cost-china-payin...) These examples are all military because private companies are unwilling to publicize their designs were stolen, and the government is unwilling to admit they couldn't protect private industry.

hellbannedguy 5y ago

I'm to tired for a debate, but this is a start: https://defense.info/re-thinking-strategy/2020/10/the-fight-against-chinas-theft-of-space-technology/ https://defense.info/re-thinking-strategy/2020/10/the-fight-...

simion314 5y ago
FYI , you know that US was caught spying on other countries, including economical espionage(on Airbus) and I remember I seen recently some video about US getting access to some Russian equipment and the hyper patriotic narrator ... now imagine I would invent some stupid accusation that SpaceX is built on tech stolent from Russia and airbus without any proof just some unrelated links about that a guy maybe stole some seeds or some documents that you can't trust because of the political and racist environment in US. If the tech is stolen I suggest you either do some better work on presenting this or better wait for someone less lazy, more competent and with more knowledge in this domain to do it. Some US gov employee could either show or fabricate better evidence then you.
- mike_d 5y ago
  There is quite a bit of whataboutism when Chinese espionage comes up, however the key difference is that the government has a financial interest in most companies and often shares loot from foreign competitors with local businesses. Yes, the US, Russia, France, etc. do this too. The big difference is when the government gives Lockheed the design plans for a new Chinese fighter jet the goal is to develop countermeasures and defeats for its technology, not to clone it outright.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    Nobody is cloning outright. They are all improving. It it not like a copy-paste. More like a clipboard exploit.
  - simion314 5y ago
    My issue with this comments here is, do you have any proof? China made a rover with 6 wheels and this means it is stolen? WTF is the "round corners" issue again? I would like to see something more real, like Patent 1234 "Mars rover with metal wheels" then show how China somwhow broke this ridiculous patent. OR show that US rover contains some super secret tech that is also present in China stuff. As far as I know China can send his smartest people in US, EU or other countries to learn advanced stuff then bring them back in have them teach in their universities. Combine that with a large population and a hard working people that have respect for science I can easily see them getting number one in sciences and tech. IMO, keeping things secrets is not a valid long term strategy, look at the Apple new CPU/GPU people are reverse engineering it fast. The only thing Apple can do is put tons of patents (including shit ones) and then FUD everyone with their army of lawyers. There was a post yesterday I think about someone implementing a similar algorithm with the SpaceXs one to vertical land a virtual rocket, see is possible to implement a similar looking thing without sending a commando of guys and steal tech.
    - mike_d 5y ago
      A great example is the Chengdu J-20, which was a direct clone of the F-22 using plans stolen from Lockheed Martin. The J-31 is heavily inspired by but not a complete clone of the F-35 because the latter was still under heavy development when the plans were stolen. (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-national-who-conspired-hack-us-defense-contractors-systems-sentenced-46-months https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-national-who-conspire...) The J-15 is a clone of the Russian Su-33, reverse engineered from a physical jet they obtained from Ukraine. The only real modifications are the use of lighter composite materials so that the inferior launchers on Chinese carriers could get them in the air. (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/high-cost-china-paying-copying-stolen-su-33-russian-jet-fighter-118486 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/high-cost-china-payin...) These examples are all military because private companies are unwilling to publicize their designs were stolen, and the government is unwilling to admit they couldn't protect private industry.