5 ms·

Apple Is Holding Back the Creator Economy

29 points by dshipper 5y ago

EvilEy3 5y ago
> What kinds of apps would exist if Apple didn’t take it upon itself to judge which apps are valuable or moral, and which are not? Gee, if only there was a platform in this digital gulag that didn't have this limitation! Imagine the possibilities! Oh right, it's green, and it's not so cool. Who cares about it anyways, right?
- Epskampie 5y ago
  You mean the web? The most empowering and useful “platform” in the whole world because there is no single bigcorp behind it.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    He means Android and ChromeOS. As for the Web, it is a couple of years away of turning into ChromeOS. https://www.chromium.org/teams/web-capabilities-fugu https://www.chromium.org/teams/web-capabilities-fugu
- emsy 5y ago
  People looking for paying customers. Iphone users are much more lucrative. An iPhone is also a status marker which is why most apps start as ios exclusives. It’s much easier to develop for since there are fewer devices and you can expect a certain performance. I would love to see this flipped for the simple reason that I think Apple is complacent and anti-innovation but in the meantime this is the reality we have to deal with.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  No need for the attitude, especially since it is plain wrong because Google do judge. Just not as extremely as Apple.
- wayneftw 5y ago
  Golly, I bet if I build for Android I can get half of all the users in the USA to move to that platform too! That way everybody who has a smart phone could all use my app... Aww shucks, my app is a game for kids though and 90% of the youth are on an iPhone. Maybe though all I have to do is release it for Android and they'll all see what's really cool and come piling in!! Right? Let's get real though. I would have a better chance of getting to everybody if I lobby the government to force Apple to open up. The way I see it they shouldn't be allowed to decide for half the US or 90% of US youths that some app should or should not exist.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > Aww shucks, my app is a game for kids though and 90% of the youth are on an iPhone Really? I would have thought people would be hesitant to buy expensive devices for everyday use for kids. Do you have a source showing the distribution of that particular market? Not saying you're wrong, just that it sounds weird.
    - wayneftw 5y ago
      https://www.matthewball.vc/all/applemetaverse https://www.matthewball.vc/all/applemetaverse https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2020/8/18/app-stores https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2020/8/18/app-stores https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/06/us-teen-iphone-ownership-reaches-all-time-high-continues-to-grow https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/06/us-teen-iphone-ow... https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held-by-smartphone-platforms-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held... https://www.techspot.com/news/74108-over-80-us-teens-iphone-owners-according-survey.html https://www.techspot.com/news/74108-over-80-us-teens-iphone-... https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-share/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-sh... https://macdailynews.com/2019/05/16/apple-iphones-installed-base-hits-193-million-units-in-the-u-s/ https://macdailynews.com/2019/05/16/apple-iphones-installed-...
konart 5y ago
> What kinds of premium experiences would be possible if creators were able to charge more than $999? Well, if I can charge more than $999 and people are paying - I will do just that. Charge more for the same amount of whatever.
unclemase 5y ago
How would Apple be different if Steve Jobs were still around? All company aspects.
- EvilEy3 5y ago
  I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Jobs was the one who created this system. Steve wanted to control EVERY aspect of the ecosystem.
throwbacktictac 5y ago
I don't develop apps for the App Store so I don't know what it's like to go up against the beast. But Apples logic makes sense to me. If developers want their 30% back then they should develop a marketing pipeline that funnel users to their preferred payment method. If the 30% is at all worth it then it make sense to devise a way to capture as much of it as possible. On the flip side, it's not a free lunch. Developers will have to spend money to get users on boarded outside of the App store. With that said, I agree that 30% is too much and makes Apple look greedy.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  You mean like a subscription or selling in-app add-ons? Apple take 30% of that too. Trying to circumvent it by pointing to an outsider payment service is a banable offence. In the Epic games Vs. Apple mails have been shown that shows they even talked about banning Netflix because they let you pay on netflix.com. Someone smaller than Netflix would have been removed from the AppStore.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    You can have subscriptions without Apple taking a cut.
    - irq 5y ago
      True, but those subscriptions can’t be purchased through an iOS app. Nor can you direct users from an iOS app to your web site to purchase the subscription there. Both are against Apple’s rules. You have to just hope users figure out how to subscribe on their own. Or give Apple their 30%.
      - threatofrain 5y ago
        And the difference appears to be one of whether customer subscriptions were negotiated on Apple’s platform or yours.
    - Dah00n 5y ago
gentleman11 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Apple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Apple It seems like if you got famous outside the platform, they will be flexible with you. Although, the Wikipedia article says binding of Isaac is still banned
tomjen3 5y ago
As an Android user I can side load apps, but I have only done it once or twice and I had a very creepy feeling doing it. The other issue is that I don't ever want to have to use anything but google, apple or PayPal for anything recurring because I never know how hard it is to cancel. Sadly I am often forced to.
thefz 5y ago
> But now that the iPhone is ubiquitous, the App Store has become part of the basic infrastructure of the internet. I spend tens of hours every week online and not even a minute of it on Apple's App Store. So no, it's not "a part of the basic infrastructure of the Internet", rather a service that exists thanks to the Internet. I don't get this article. The author claims that enormous control and suffocating fees stunt the work of creatives, while at the same time not acknowledging the existence of a myriad other options. Don't like Apple? Don't use its services, and that's it. > Apple’s gatekeeper status is holding back the growth of the creator economy. Then move to something else? > But now the App Store is not one small outpost for developers and creators to make a living. It is an unavoidable, ubiquitous forum for commerce. It is not. This is the view of someone who only knows about Apple's ecosystem.
- sofixa 5y ago
  > Then move to something else? Sadly the iOS platform is pretty popular (25-50% in most developed countries), and a walled garden par excellence, so ignoring it is ignoring a decent part of your potential market.
gizajob 5y ago
'the camera on the first iPhone' definitely wasn't a 'world class tool'. The camera on the first iPhone was terrible! I had a Nokia N95 at the time, and the quality just blew the iPhone out of the water. The iPhone's camera was so bad instagram had to come along with extreme filters to get a decent sort of image out of it, although, look how that turned out... Also, saying the App Store "is an unavoidable, ubiquitous forum for commerce" really just isn't true. I manage to avoid it fairly successfully. And crying about a $1000 cap on in app purchases as being harmful? Please, you're killing me. 1st world problems.
jamesdhutton 5y ago
I don’t think the article’s comparison with Stripe is valid. The App Store is not just payment infrastructure. It provides distribution and discovery as well. A more valid comparison would be with Amazon.
- sofixa 5y ago
  > It provides distribution and discovery as well. A more valid comparison would be with Amazon. Comparing the distribution of megabytes of packages vs physical packages with all the associated real world logistics? Really? One is drastically easier and cheaper.
  - jamesdhutton 5y ago
    Of course. That’s exactly my point. I don’t know what cut Amazon takes from sellers. But you would expect it to be higher than Apple’s cut, since it is dealing with physical goods. The comparison would be interesting. (Unlike the comparison with Stripe.)
dccoolgai 5y ago
I can forgive almost anything Apple chooses to do with its app ecosystem. I'm not going to use it, it's none of my business. Safari? That's where they are doing real harm to the economy. It's 1000x worse than IE ever was. At least you _could_ move on from IE when it stagnated. Apple won't even allow real browsers on iOS. It crosses the line between limiting consumer choice to strangling it out to keep users trapped in their walled garden. The market can't solve the problem, the government needs to step in and twist their arm IMHO.

29 points by dshipper 5y ago

> What kinds of apps would exist if Apple didn’t take it upon itself to judge which apps are valuable or moral, and which are not? Gee, if only there was a platform in this digital gulag that didn't have this limitation! Imagine the possibilities! Oh right, it's green, and it's not so cool. Who cares about it anyways, right?

Epskampie 5y ago
You mean the web? The most empowering and useful “platform” in the whole world because there is no single bigcorp behind it.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  He means Android and ChromeOS. As for the Web, it is a couple of years away of turning into ChromeOS. https://www.chromium.org/teams/web-capabilities-fugu https://www.chromium.org/teams/web-capabilities-fugu
emsy 5y ago
People looking for paying customers. Iphone users are much more lucrative. An iPhone is also a status marker which is why most apps start as ios exclusives. It’s much easier to develop for since there are fewer devices and you can expect a certain performance. I would love to see this flipped for the simple reason that I think Apple is complacent and anti-innovation but in the meantime this is the reality we have to deal with.
Dah00n 5y ago
No need for the attitude, especially since it is plain wrong because Google do judge. Just not as extremely as Apple.
wayneftw 5y ago
Golly, I bet if I build for Android I can get half of all the users in the USA to move to that platform too! That way everybody who has a smart phone could all use my app... Aww shucks, my app is a game for kids though and 90% of the youth are on an iPhone. Maybe though all I have to do is release it for Android and they'll all see what's really cool and come piling in!! Right? Let's get real though. I would have a better chance of getting to everybody if I lobby the government to force Apple to open up. The way I see it they shouldn't be allowed to decide for half the US or 90% of US youths that some app should or should not exist.
- sofixa 5y ago
  > Aww shucks, my app is a game for kids though and 90% of the youth are on an iPhone Really? I would have thought people would be hesitant to buy expensive devices for everyday use for kids. Do you have a source showing the distribution of that particular market? Not saying you're wrong, just that it sounds weird.
  - wayneftw 5y ago
    https://www.matthewball.vc/all/applemetaverse https://www.matthewball.vc/all/applemetaverse https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2020/8/18/app-stores https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2020/8/18/app-stores https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/06/us-teen-iphone-ownership-reaches-all-time-high-continues-to-grow https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/06/us-teen-iphone-ow... https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held-by-smartphone-platforms-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held... https://www.techspot.com/news/74108-over-80-us-teens-iphone-owners-according-survey.html https://www.techspot.com/news/74108-over-80-us-teens-iphone-... https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-share/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-sh... https://macdailynews.com/2019/05/16/apple-iphones-installed-base-hits-193-million-units-in-the-u-s/ https://macdailynews.com/2019/05/16/apple-iphones-installed-...

konart 5y ago

> What kinds of premium experiences would be possible if creators were able to charge more than $999? Well, if I can charge more than $999 and people are paying - I will do just that. Charge more for the same amount of whatever.

unclemase 5y ago

How would Apple be different if Steve Jobs were still around? All company aspects.

EvilEy3 5y ago
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Jobs was the one who created this system. Steve wanted to control EVERY aspect of the ecosystem.

throwbacktictac 5y ago

I don't develop apps for the App Store so I don't know what it's like to go up against the beast. But Apples logic makes sense to me. If developers want their 30% back then they should develop a marketing pipeline that funnel users to their preferred payment method. If the 30% is at all worth it then it make sense to devise a way to capture as much of it as possible. On the flip side, it's not a free lunch. Developers will have to spend money to get users on boarded outside of the App store. With that said, I agree that 30% is too much and makes Apple look greedy.

Dah00n 5y ago
You mean like a subscription or selling in-app add-ons? Apple take 30% of that too. Trying to circumvent it by pointing to an outsider payment service is a banable offence. In the Epic games Vs. Apple mails have been shown that shows they even talked about banning Netflix because they let you pay on netflix.com. Someone smaller than Netflix would have been removed from the AppStore.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  You can have subscriptions without Apple taking a cut.
  - irq 5y ago
    True, but those subscriptions can’t be purchased through an iOS app. Nor can you direct users from an iOS app to your web site to purchase the subscription there. Both are against Apple’s rules. You have to just hope users figure out how to subscribe on their own. Or give Apple their 30%.
    - threatofrain 5y ago
      And the difference appears to be one of whether customer subscriptions were negotiated on Apple’s platform or yours.
  - Dah00n 5y ago

gentleman11 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Apple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Apple It seems like if you got famous outside the platform, they will be flexible with you. Although, the Wikipedia article says binding of Isaac is still banned

tomjen3 5y ago

As an Android user I can side load apps, but I have only done it once or twice and I had a very creepy feeling doing it. The other issue is that I don't ever want to have to use anything but google, apple or PayPal for anything recurring because I never know how hard it is to cancel. Sadly I am often forced to.

thefz 5y ago

> But now that the iPhone is ubiquitous, the App Store has become part of the basic infrastructure of the internet. I spend tens of hours every week online and not even a minute of it on Apple's App Store. So no, it's not "a part of the basic infrastructure of the Internet", rather a service that exists thanks to the Internet. I don't get this article. The author claims that enormous control and suffocating fees stunt the work of creatives, while at the same time not acknowledging the existence of a myriad other options. Don't like Apple? Don't use its services, and that's it. > Apple’s gatekeeper status is holding back the growth of the creator economy. Then move to something else? > But now the App Store is not one small outpost for developers and creators to make a living. It is an unavoidable, ubiquitous forum for commerce. It is not. This is the view of someone who only knows about Apple's ecosystem.

sofixa 5y ago
> Then move to something else? Sadly the iOS platform is pretty popular (25-50% in most developed countries), and a walled garden par excellence, so ignoring it is ignoring a decent part of your potential market.

gizajob 5y ago

'the camera on the first iPhone' definitely wasn't a 'world class tool'. The camera on the first iPhone was terrible! I had a Nokia N95 at the time, and the quality just blew the iPhone out of the water. The iPhone's camera was so bad instagram had to come along with extreme filters to get a decent sort of image out of it, although, look how that turned out... Also, saying the App Store "is an unavoidable, ubiquitous forum for commerce" really just isn't true. I manage to avoid it fairly successfully. And crying about a $1000 cap on in app purchases as being harmful? Please, you're killing me. 1st world problems.

jamesdhutton 5y ago

I don’t think the article’s comparison with Stripe is valid. The App Store is not just payment infrastructure. It provides distribution and discovery as well. A more valid comparison would be with Amazon.

sofixa 5y ago
> It provides distribution and discovery as well. A more valid comparison would be with Amazon. Comparing the distribution of megabytes of packages vs physical packages with all the associated real world logistics? Really? One is drastically easier and cheaper.
- jamesdhutton 5y ago
  Of course. That’s exactly my point. I don’t know what cut Amazon takes from sellers. But you would expect it to be higher than Apple’s cut, since it is dealing with physical goods. The comparison would be interesting. (Unlike the comparison with Stripe.)

dccoolgai 5y ago

I can forgive almost anything Apple chooses to do with its app ecosystem. I'm not going to use it, it's none of my business. Safari? That's where they are doing real harm to the economy. It's 1000x worse than IE ever was. At least you _could_ move on from IE when it stagnated. Apple won't even allow real browsers on iOS. It crosses the line between limiting consumer choice to strangling it out to keep users trapped in their walled garden. The market can't solve the problem, the government needs to step in and twist their arm IMHO.