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>California is extremely entrepreneur-friendly, and have absolutely massive amounts of business compare to Arizona or Texas. I don't know if you've been follow

>California is extremely entrepreneur-friendly, and have absolutely massive amounts of business compare to Arizona or Texas. I don't know if you've been following the news lately of a bunch of companies moving OUT of California to Texas. One of these people is Elon Musk. And guess what? I have a source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez90rXhMWjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez90rXhMWjE I'm not saying California is wrong. Far from it. They're right. These laws are made to protect the people. Like you said, it's not minor at all. I never said it was minor. However ANY state can decide that economic growth is more important than environmental safety and short term health of its' citizens and make a strategic move to make it's own location much more attractive to business. So the costs aren't clear. Do we want an economic wasteland or an environmental wasteland? This is my point. California is not dead yet, but the trends have been pointing in this direction for years.

epistasis 5y ago
The idea that California could become an economic wasteland is absolutely preposterous. It does have its problems: costs are high and there's extreme inequality (because of the nation's worst land taxation and land use policies combined, read your Henry George folks). But these problems are because of its extreme prosperity and economic potential, not because there is any risk of that economic powerhouse stopping. The news reports are anecdotal, Musk is keeping California business but expanding production throughout the country, just as Tesla was before. Companies that are leaving are those that are less innovative and have fallen from the top of the value chain. They can no longer benefit from the extremely productive environment, but can scrape by with lower costs, such as Oracle. There's no need to sacrifice California's environment to continue to be an absolutely massive economic powerhouse. But we may need to sacrifice some of our bad ideas about land.
- atweiden 5y ago
  > The idea that California could become an economic wasteland is absolutely preposterous. It does have its problems: costs are high and there's extreme inequality (because of the nation's worst land taxation and land use policies combined, read your Henry George folks). The wild housing market is 90% of the inequality. The other 90% can be summed up by this 1994 article in the New York Times [1]. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligence-and-who-has-it.html https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligenc... [1]: https://www.nytimes3xbfgragh.onion/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligence-and-who-has-it.html https://www.nytimes3xbfgragh.onion/1994/10/16/books/what-is-...
- Turing_Machine 5y ago
  > The idea that California could become an economic wasteland is absolutely preposterous. At one time people would have said the same about the Rust Belt. Times change.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    Yes, I agree with this. I should have added the qualifier "soon" to my prediction of California's future.
    - neonological 5y ago
      No. Detroit became a wasteland well within our lifetimes. Whether this happens for California soon or not soon is well outside the realm of "preposterous." Your post is not just off by a word, it is entirely off.
      - epistasis 5y ago
        I think that our fundamental disagreement comes down to whether California is currently in that downturn. I would say no, and if I understand your position, you would say yes. Is that a fair assessment?
        neonological 5y ago
        No it is not. Why don't you read my posts again. California is currently trending downward in certain metrics related to economics but this is entirely different from being in an "economic downturn." California going into an economic downturn in the future is a 100 percent possibility. CA and the entire united States goes through economic downturns about roughly every decade and this has been going on for centuries. The economy is proovably cyclical. Either way what Im saying is that the current metrics of migration show that California MAY become an economic waste land like Detroit. This is much worse than a economic downturn. Keyword: may, meaning not outside the realm of fantasy and also not a guarantee, but very very possible. What is absolutely clear though is that if these metrics of negative brain drain continues then absolutely CA will become an economic wasteland.
scsilver 5y ago
California is one of the most economically richest places on earth, and I only say that from the point of view of a world traveler and without bias.
- neonological 5y ago
  What I don't understand is how you think world traveler gives any credit or support for your stance. First the stronger point is made through evidence and the weaker point is made through reputation. Second of all, a "world traveler" is not really much of a reputable status that lends any additional weight to your thesis. California is rich. But California is trending down economically. This has been increasing for a decade and accelerated due to covid. Here's the point of view from an economist without bias: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2IVj_T6y84 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2IVj_T6y84
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - epistasis 5y ago
    > But California is trending down economically. This has been increasing for a decade and accelerated due to covid. Is there some sort of higher-information content article or video you can post than that YouTube video? It's a slow roll out of rather basic history with some unsubstantiated claims thrown in in the first 6 minutes, and I'm not going to waste any more time on that. Particularly when it's talking about an "economic downturn" without stating any support for that. I know this video was made 7 months ago, and that sort of unsubstantiated claim gained lots of traction with right-wingers, but it was a completely false rumor. California's economy is killing it, and our largely income-tax-based government is swimming in an unprecedented surplus because of how incredibly resilient California was when other areas were hurting. That leads to the second egregious unsupported claim in the first few minutes: "California was particularly hard hit by the globally economic downturn"--no it wasn't and that was a preposterous statement to make, even 7 months ago, California was doing great and there was absolutely no reason to think it was doing worse. California is not a perfect paradise; we are weirdly focused on keeping people out of the state, which means that people without land or without high incomes are continuously forced out. But the economic engine continues on as we do this.

epistasis 5y ago

The idea that California could become an economic wasteland is absolutely preposterous. It does have its problems: costs are high and there's extreme inequality (because of the nation's worst land taxation and land use policies combined, read your Henry George folks). But these problems are because of its extreme prosperity and economic potential, not because there is any risk of that economic powerhouse stopping. The news reports are anecdotal, Musk is keeping California business but expanding production throughout the country, just as Tesla was before. Companies that are leaving are those that are less innovative and have fallen from the top of the value chain. They can no longer benefit from the extremely productive environment, but can scrape by with lower costs, such as Oracle. There's no need to sacrifice California's environment to continue to be an absolutely massive economic powerhouse. But we may need to sacrifice some of our bad ideas about land.

atweiden 5y ago
> The idea that California could become an economic wasteland is absolutely preposterous. It does have its problems: costs are high and there's extreme inequality (because of the nation's worst land taxation and land use policies combined, read your Henry George folks). The wild housing market is 90% of the inequality. The other 90% can be summed up by this 1994 article in the New York Times [1]. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligence-and-who-has-it.html https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligenc... [1]: https://www.nytimes3xbfgragh.onion/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligence-and-who-has-it.html https://www.nytimes3xbfgragh.onion/1994/10/16/books/what-is-...
Turing_Machine 5y ago
> The idea that California could become an economic wasteland is absolutely preposterous. At one time people would have said the same about the Rust Belt. Times change.
- epistasis 5y ago
  Yes, I agree with this. I should have added the qualifier "soon" to my prediction of California's future.
  - neonological 5y ago
    No. Detroit became a wasteland well within our lifetimes. Whether this happens for California soon or not soon is well outside the realm of "preposterous." Your post is not just off by a word, it is entirely off.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      I think that our fundamental disagreement comes down to whether California is currently in that downturn. I would say no, and if I understand your position, you would say yes. Is that a fair assessment?
      - neonological 5y ago
        No it is not. Why don't you read my posts again. California is currently trending downward in certain metrics related to economics but this is entirely different from being in an "economic downturn." California going into an economic downturn in the future is a 100 percent possibility. CA and the entire united States goes through economic downturns about roughly every decade and this has been going on for centuries. The economy is proovably cyclical. Either way what Im saying is that the current metrics of migration show that California MAY become an economic waste land like Detroit. This is much worse than a economic downturn. Keyword: may, meaning not outside the realm of fantasy and also not a guarantee, but very very possible. What is absolutely clear though is that if these metrics of negative brain drain continues then absolutely CA will become an economic wasteland.

scsilver 5y ago

California is one of the most economically richest places on earth, and I only say that from the point of view of a world traveler and without bias.

neonological 5y ago
What I don't understand is how you think world traveler gives any credit or support for your stance. First the stronger point is made through evidence and the weaker point is made through reputation. Second of all, a "world traveler" is not really much of a reputable status that lends any additional weight to your thesis. California is rich. But California is trending down economically. This has been increasing for a decade and accelerated due to covid. Here's the point of view from an economist without bias: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2IVj_T6y84 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2IVj_T6y84
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- epistasis 5y ago
  > But California is trending down economically. This has been increasing for a decade and accelerated due to covid. Is there some sort of higher-information content article or video you can post than that YouTube video? It's a slow roll out of rather basic history with some unsubstantiated claims thrown in in the first 6 minutes, and I'm not going to waste any more time on that. Particularly when it's talking about an "economic downturn" without stating any support for that. I know this video was made 7 months ago, and that sort of unsubstantiated claim gained lots of traction with right-wingers, but it was a completely false rumor. California's economy is killing it, and our largely income-tax-based government is swimming in an unprecedented surplus because of how incredibly resilient California was when other areas were hurting. That leads to the second egregious unsupported claim in the first few minutes: "California was particularly hard hit by the globally economic downturn"--no it wasn't and that was a preposterous statement to make, even 7 months ago, California was doing great and there was absolutely no reason to think it was doing worse. California is not a perfect paradise; we are weirdly focused on keeping people out of the state, which means that people without land or without high incomes are continuously forced out. But the economic engine continues on as we do this.