8 ms·

> They even hide # behind a special alt key combo. That's way worse than removing the escape key.

by joombaga 5y ago

happymellon 5y ago
It's things like this that make me say that Macbooks aren't for developers rather than running Linux in a VM.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  I'm baffled how a developer ever assumes that whatever's on the keyboard is hardcoded and can never be changed. Yes, for some reason (tradition, history) Macs prefer typewriter layouts on their keyboards. But... have you ever even tried looking into System Preferences - Keyboard - Input Sources and changing the layout to "US (PC)"?
  - happymellon 5y ago
    I have no idea why you would assume that I don't know how to change a keyboard layout. I have my keyboard set to UK ISO so the keys don't match what is printed. I don't understand why you don't see that a company that sells laptops with proprietary keyboard layouts is bad.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      Ah yes, unlike every other company that ships opensource keyboards right? As a person who has had laptops and keyboards with layouts in Russian, Turkish, Romanian and Swedish, and who uses US layout almost exclusively, I honestly have zero idea what your problem is.
      - happymellon 5y ago
        What has opensource got to do with it?
      - happymellon 5y ago
        I have no idea really what you are talking about, but in the UK we have a standard layout. And no matter who I buy from they are all identical except for Lenovo Function key which is swapped with Control, but otherwise identical. Except Apple who's keyboard is drastically different to literally everyone else's. Why do they bother with such a poor layout if they are supposed to be such consumer centric?
        dmitriid 5y ago
        By "drastically different" you mean "has maybe two differences that are not too different to weird stuff manufacturers do to keyboards"? Note: removing # in favor of £ is apparently standard for UK keyboards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards...
        happymellon 5y ago
        You should read your own link. We do put the £ where Americans put #, but we don't remove it from the keyboard. 2 differences? Read your link. Back tick is in the wrong place, hash as already discussed is in the wrong place, forward slash is in the wrong place, double quote is in the wrong place, @ is in the wrong place. This isn't about Super being switched with Alt.
        dmitriid 5y ago
        > We do put the £ where Americans put #, but we don't remove it from the keyboard. Apple doesn't remove it either. > 2 differences? Read your link. Windows: - the extra key is added next to the Enter key to accommodate # (number sign) and ~ (tilde) - The £ (pound sign) takes the place vacated by the number sign on the 3 key - @ and " are swapped (to ⇧ Shift+' and ⇧ Shift+2, respectively) - (the list goes on for another 4 or 5 items) Apple (emphasis mine): - The # symbol is replaced by the £ symbol (as on PC keyboards); the # is available by pressing ⌥ Option+3 - The " and @ keys are swapped. - More recent Apple British keyboards move the backquote/~ key to the left of the Z key and replace it with a section sign (§) and a plus-minus sign (±), respectively. And that's it. Well. It's three differences compared to US layout, two of them are basically exactly the same as PC versions. > Back tick is in the wrong place, hash as already discussed is in the wrong place, forward slash is in the wrong place, double quote is in the wrong place, @ is in the wrong place. Apart from back tick the rest are consistent with PC layout.
Toutouxc 5y ago
Funny. @#$~^&*{} are all alt (Option) combos on my Mac, my language has actual letters on those keys (ěščřžýáíé). Some devs I know switch to US layout for programming and some don't. I never do, I'm used to the alt combos and I don't like retraining my muscle memory.

> They even hide # behind a special alt key combo. That's way worse than removing the escape key.

happymellon 5y ago

It's things like this that make me say that Macbooks aren't for developers rather than running Linux in a VM.

dmitriid 5y ago
I'm baffled how a developer ever assumes that whatever's on the keyboard is hardcoded and can never be changed. Yes, for some reason (tradition, history) Macs prefer typewriter layouts on their keyboards. But... have you ever even tried looking into System Preferences - Keyboard - Input Sources and changing the layout to "US (PC)"?
- happymellon 5y ago
  I have no idea why you would assume that I don't know how to change a keyboard layout. I have my keyboard set to UK ISO so the keys don't match what is printed. I don't understand why you don't see that a company that sells laptops with proprietary keyboard layouts is bad.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    Ah yes, unlike every other company that ships opensource keyboards right? As a person who has had laptops and keyboards with layouts in Russian, Turkish, Romanian and Swedish, and who uses US layout almost exclusively, I honestly have zero idea what your problem is.
    - happymellon 5y ago
      What has opensource got to do with it?
    - happymellon 5y ago
      I have no idea really what you are talking about, but in the UK we have a standard layout. And no matter who I buy from they are all identical except for Lenovo Function key which is swapped with Control, but otherwise identical. Except Apple who's keyboard is drastically different to literally everyone else's. Why do they bother with such a poor layout if they are supposed to be such consumer centric?
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        By "drastically different" you mean "has maybe two differences that are not too different to weird stuff manufacturers do to keyboards"? Note: removing # in favor of £ is apparently standard for UK keyboards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards...
        happymellon 5y ago
        You should read your own link. We do put the £ where Americans put #, but we don't remove it from the keyboard. 2 differences? Read your link. Back tick is in the wrong place, hash as already discussed is in the wrong place, forward slash is in the wrong place, double quote is in the wrong place, @ is in the wrong place. This isn't about Super being switched with Alt.
        dmitriid 5y ago
        > We do put the £ where Americans put #, but we don't remove it from the keyboard. Apple doesn't remove it either. > 2 differences? Read your link. Windows: - the extra key is added next to the Enter key to accommodate # (number sign) and ~ (tilde) - The £ (pound sign) takes the place vacated by the number sign on the 3 key - @ and " are swapped (to ⇧ Shift+' and ⇧ Shift+2, respectively) - (the list goes on for another 4 or 5 items) Apple (emphasis mine): - The # symbol is replaced by the £ symbol (as on PC keyboards); the # is available by pressing ⌥ Option+3 - The " and @ keys are swapped. - More recent Apple British keyboards move the backquote/~ key to the left of the Z key and replace it with a section sign (§) and a plus-minus sign (±), respectively. And that's it. Well. It's three differences compared to US layout, two of them are basically exactly the same as PC versions. > Back tick is in the wrong place, hash as already discussed is in the wrong place, forward slash is in the wrong place, double quote is in the wrong place, @ is in the wrong place. Apart from back tick the rest are consistent with PC layout.

Toutouxc 5y ago

Funny. @#$~^&*{} are all alt (Option) combos on my Mac, my language has actual letters on those keys (ěščřžýáíé). Some devs I know switch to US layout for programming and some don't. I never do, I'm used to the alt combos and I don't like retraining my muscle memory.