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> Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as well as my Mac. If you are American. In the UK, I find the keyboa

> Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as well as my Mac. If you are American. In the UK, I find the keyboard layout bewildering. It is not ANSI and it isn't ISO. It's some other thing, with keys that don't exist in any other English speaking keyboard. They even hide # behind a special alt key combo. Other things about it are good, but there are some design decisions which are just plain wrong. [Edit] I received downvotes, so as someone who uses a UK Macbook Pro I just have to reference this because they layout pisses me off. Here is an Apple link to prove that this is real. https://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/4668/as-images.apple.com/is/MLA22B?wid=4000&hei=1800&fmt=jpeg&qlt=95&.v=1496943865511 https://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/4668/as-images.apple... In the UK ISO layout, the `~#` key is normally where the `|\` key is on the Apple keyboard, and the backtick which is down by the Z is to the left of the 1. We get range and paragraph next to the 1, which is horrible. The thing that makes me concerned about the build of this 2019 i7 Macbook Pro is that is is always extremely hot. I'm only running one 4k screen off it but it is regularly running with fans on. I've had Macs in the past, and they haven't been quite as noisy as this. I'm sure its mostly due to crappy Intel hardware which is why they are being dumped, but this is a Mac and I can only judge them on what they sell.

joombaga 5y ago
> They even hide # behind a special alt key combo. That's way worse than removing the escape key.
- happymellon 5y ago
  It's things like this that make me say that Macbooks aren't for developers rather than running Linux in a VM.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    I'm baffled how a developer ever assumes that whatever's on the keyboard is hardcoded and can never be changed. Yes, for some reason (tradition, history) Macs prefer typewriter layouts on their keyboards. But... have you ever even tried looking into System Preferences - Keyboard - Input Sources and changing the layout to "US (PC)"?
    - happymellon 5y ago
      I have no idea why you would assume that I don't know how to change a keyboard layout. I have my keyboard set to UK ISO so the keys don't match what is printed. I don't understand why you don't see that a company that sells laptops with proprietary keyboard layouts is bad.
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        Ah yes, unlike every other company that ships opensource keyboards right? As a person who has had laptops and keyboards with layouts in Russian, Turkish, Romanian and Swedish, and who uses US layout almost exclusively, I honestly have zero idea what your problem is.
        happymellon 5y ago
        What has opensource got to do with it?
        happymellon 5y ago
        I have no idea really what you are talking about, but in the UK we have a standard layout. And no matter who I buy from they are all identical except for Lenovo Function key which is swapped with Control, but otherwise identical. Except Apple who's keyboard is drastically different to literally everyone else's. Why do they bother with such a poor layout if they are supposed to be such consumer centric?
        dmitriid 5y ago
        By "drastically different" you mean "has maybe two differences that are not too different to weird stuff manufacturers do to keyboards"? Note: removing # in favor of £ is apparently standard for UK keyboards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards...
        happymellon 5y ago
- Toutouxc 5y ago
  Funny. @#$~^&*{} are all alt (Option) combos on my Mac, my language has actual letters on those keys (ěščřžýáíé). Some devs I know switch to US layout for programming and some don't. I never do, I'm used to the alt combos and I don't like retraining my muscle memory.
breakfastduck 5y ago
The keyboard layout is absolutely non standard in the UK but it's absolutely standard apple in the UK. Appreciate that may be off if you're trying to adopt but I'm so used to this layout after many, many years. I'm using a 2007 iMac keyboard and it matches exactly to my 2019 16". For example, the alt 3 for hash is so naturally embedded I reach for it when using windows machines. I have to do weird rebinds on my windows setup to match the layout because it's so embedded. I think macs have had the same keyboard layout for 15 years or so at this point.
- happymellon 5y ago
  That's nice that you have trained yourself, but it's crappy enough that MacWorld had to write an article explaining how to use the keyboard. https://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/hashtag-mac-3688542/ https://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/hashtag-mac-3688542/
  - breakfastduck 5y ago
    It's not about training, it's about being a mac user for over 15 years. If they suddenly changed the keyboard layout I and many other long time users would be absolutely infuriated. This is just the correct keyboard layout for me.

joombaga 5y ago

> They even hide # behind a special alt key combo. That's way worse than removing the escape key.

happymellon 5y ago
It's things like this that make me say that Macbooks aren't for developers rather than running Linux in a VM.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  I'm baffled how a developer ever assumes that whatever's on the keyboard is hardcoded and can never be changed. Yes, for some reason (tradition, history) Macs prefer typewriter layouts on their keyboards. But... have you ever even tried looking into System Preferences - Keyboard - Input Sources and changing the layout to "US (PC)"?
  - happymellon 5y ago
    I have no idea why you would assume that I don't know how to change a keyboard layout. I have my keyboard set to UK ISO so the keys don't match what is printed. I don't understand why you don't see that a company that sells laptops with proprietary keyboard layouts is bad.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      Ah yes, unlike every other company that ships opensource keyboards right? As a person who has had laptops and keyboards with layouts in Russian, Turkish, Romanian and Swedish, and who uses US layout almost exclusively, I honestly have zero idea what your problem is.
      - happymellon 5y ago
        What has opensource got to do with it?
      - happymellon 5y ago
        I have no idea really what you are talking about, but in the UK we have a standard layout. And no matter who I buy from they are all identical except for Lenovo Function key which is swapped with Control, but otherwise identical. Except Apple who's keyboard is drastically different to literally everyone else's. Why do they bother with such a poor layout if they are supposed to be such consumer centric?
        dmitriid 5y ago
        By "drastically different" you mean "has maybe two differences that are not too different to weird stuff manufacturers do to keyboards"? Note: removing # in favor of £ is apparently standard for UK keyboards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards...
        happymellon 5y ago
Toutouxc 5y ago
Funny. @#$~^&*{} are all alt (Option) combos on my Mac, my language has actual letters on those keys (ěščřžýáíé). Some devs I know switch to US layout for programming and some don't. I never do, I'm used to the alt combos and I don't like retraining my muscle memory.

breakfastduck 5y ago

The keyboard layout is absolutely non standard in the UK but it's absolutely standard apple in the UK. Appreciate that may be off if you're trying to adopt but I'm so used to this layout after many, many years. I'm using a 2007 iMac keyboard and it matches exactly to my 2019 16". For example, the alt 3 for hash is so naturally embedded I reach for it when using windows machines. I have to do weird rebinds on my windows setup to match the layout because it's so embedded. I think macs have had the same keyboard layout for 15 years or so at this point.

happymellon 5y ago
That's nice that you have trained yourself, but it's crappy enough that MacWorld had to write an article explaining how to use the keyboard. https://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/hashtag-mac-3688542/ https://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/hashtag-mac-3688542/
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  It's not about training, it's about being a mac user for over 15 years. If they suddenly changed the keyboard layout I and many other long time users would be absolutely infuriated. This is just the correct keyboard layout for me.