4 ms·

I think we are at the tipping point where for many roles in many organizations a Bootcamp grad is no longer just an alternative pipeline to hire with some cavea

I think we are at the tipping point where for many roles in many organizations a Bootcamp grad is no longer just an alternative pipeline to hire with some caveats but increasingly the better hire. At a larger tech co I am consistently seeing boot campers coming in better prepared and with more hustle than CS grads. It would be interesting to see if their acceleration through the ranks is on average faster. It definitely is from my anecdotal experience.

908B64B197 5y ago
> increasingly the better hire. That's a stretch. What I've seen with Bootcamps is that they know one stack and how to do one thing only. They are really productive in that one stack but lack the more fundamental understanding that CS grads have. When it comes to learning a new stack, technique or solving harder problems, the CS students run in circle around bootcamp grads. But to the non-technical manager, they see the bootcamp kids writing code on day one so they naively assume they are better.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
  Well, the parent did add a "for many roles" caveat. A CS degree is almost certainly better for a multi-decade career arc, and it's a solid foundation for many different career paths, but I don't think you need to have people with CS degrees in every role that involves writing code. I'd be surprised if the bootcamp hires weren't better in the short term for specialized lower-level roles using newer tech. But many of the bootcamp learnings will be obsolete in 5 years; CS fundamentals are obviously more timeless.
  - pcmoney 5y ago
    I would push back a bit on this. Bootcamps are established and have records going back about a decade now. While I am sure some never re-skill. I don't think it is an endemic problem to bootcamps more than other backgrounds. I know bootcamp grads that are now staff level engineers at FAANG or equivalent companies (based on levels.fyi pay bands). The money is in the bank. The RSUs are vested. They are only in it because they want to be at this point Obviously not most boot campers but most engineers of any kind regardless of background wont reach that level.
- pcmoney 5y ago
  In my experience that is not the case. Increasingly the CS grads know a lot of CS and related trivia while the bootcamp grads are fearlessly able to jump into things and figure it out. Most of what BigTechCos use is non-standard anyway. BigQuery, Scala, GCP, etc. people who bias towards a FFIO mindset will be better and often Bootcampers (especially the ones solid enough to get hired) have that in spades and are hungry. I have never seen a CS student "run circles" around a bootcamp grad after equivalent experience. It is telling that "The Missing Semester of CS ed" would be laughably basic to most boot campers and last I checked would be done as part of the pre-work to get into the bootcamp to begin with. Side note: The bootcamps around today are much much better than 5 years ago. They are iterating rapidly.
  - pcmoney 5y ago
    To clarify I think the biggest driver is how driven and self-taught the individual developer is. I don't think going through the paces of a bootcamp or CS degree is a great indicator in and of itself and all else equal IMO the bootcamp wins there. The best people I have worked with have been HS dropouts (fully self taught), MIT and a CMU grad who were very self taught before their program, and bootcamp grads who pivoted from other fields (oddly music, fine arts, and a standup comic. Maybe because in those fields being "good" is completely insufficient and they bring a "must be the best" mindset?)
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > Increasingly the CS grads know a lot of CS and related trivia I like how fundamental knowledge is treated as trivia. It's an interesting perspective. > Side note: The bootcamps around today are much much better than 5 years ago. They are iterating rapidly. Citation Needed here. Almost once every two weeks there are testimonies from Lambda's students that beg to differ.
- Izkata 5y ago
  A similar issue: I have seen multiple bootcamp grads get stuck for days on things like a bug caused by the difference between deep/shallow copy because they were never exposed to that basic CS concept. To their credit as soon as I explained what the difference was they seemed to get it immediately (identifying where to fix the bug on their own), but it's like... Only learning just what they needed for the bootcamp left a lot of gaps and a lot of them just seem to have no idea how much is out there.

908B64B197 5y ago

> increasingly the better hire. That's a stretch. What I've seen with Bootcamps is that they know one stack and how to do one thing only. They are really productive in that one stack but lack the more fundamental understanding that CS grads have. When it comes to learning a new stack, technique or solving harder problems, the CS students run in circle around bootcamp grads. But to the non-technical manager, they see the bootcamp kids writing code on day one so they naively assume they are better.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
Well, the parent did add a "for many roles" caveat. A CS degree is almost certainly better for a multi-decade career arc, and it's a solid foundation for many different career paths, but I don't think you need to have people with CS degrees in every role that involves writing code. I'd be surprised if the bootcamp hires weren't better in the short term for specialized lower-level roles using newer tech. But many of the bootcamp learnings will be obsolete in 5 years; CS fundamentals are obviously more timeless.
- pcmoney 5y ago
  I would push back a bit on this. Bootcamps are established and have records going back about a decade now. While I am sure some never re-skill. I don't think it is an endemic problem to bootcamps more than other backgrounds. I know bootcamp grads that are now staff level engineers at FAANG or equivalent companies (based on levels.fyi pay bands). The money is in the bank. The RSUs are vested. They are only in it because they want to be at this point Obviously not most boot campers but most engineers of any kind regardless of background wont reach that level.
pcmoney 5y ago
In my experience that is not the case. Increasingly the CS grads know a lot of CS and related trivia while the bootcamp grads are fearlessly able to jump into things and figure it out. Most of what BigTechCos use is non-standard anyway. BigQuery, Scala, GCP, etc. people who bias towards a FFIO mindset will be better and often Bootcampers (especially the ones solid enough to get hired) have that in spades and are hungry. I have never seen a CS student "run circles" around a bootcamp grad after equivalent experience. It is telling that "The Missing Semester of CS ed" would be laughably basic to most boot campers and last I checked would be done as part of the pre-work to get into the bootcamp to begin with. Side note: The bootcamps around today are much much better than 5 years ago. They are iterating rapidly.
- pcmoney 5y ago
  To clarify I think the biggest driver is how driven and self-taught the individual developer is. I don't think going through the paces of a bootcamp or CS degree is a great indicator in and of itself and all else equal IMO the bootcamp wins there. The best people I have worked with have been HS dropouts (fully self taught), MIT and a CMU grad who were very self taught before their program, and bootcamp grads who pivoted from other fields (oddly music, fine arts, and a standup comic. Maybe because in those fields being "good" is completely insufficient and they bring a "must be the best" mindset?)
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > Increasingly the CS grads know a lot of CS and related trivia I like how fundamental knowledge is treated as trivia. It's an interesting perspective. > Side note: The bootcamps around today are much much better than 5 years ago. They are iterating rapidly. Citation Needed here. Almost once every two weeks there are testimonies from Lambda's students that beg to differ.
Izkata 5y ago
A similar issue: I have seen multiple bootcamp grads get stuck for days on things like a bug caused by the difference between deep/shallow copy because they were never exposed to that basic CS concept. To their credit as soon as I explained what the difference was they seemed to get it immediately (identifying where to fix the bug on their own), but it's like... Only learning just what they needed for the bootcamp left a lot of gaps and a lot of them just seem to have no idea how much is out there.