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I use a Macbook Pro for development. I spend a fair amount of time in Linux servers. Running a Linux VM for local development of things that require Linux doesn

I use a Macbook Pro for development. I spend a fair amount of time in Linux servers. Running a Linux VM for local development of things that require Linux doesn't bother me. I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain. When I'm using awk and grep, it's in Linux, not macOS. Not judging you or your opinion here - just explaining that I'm as bewildered by your experience as you are by mine.

smoldesu 5y ago
>I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain. I think that's a mantra that applies a little better to Linux than it does MacOS. Linux is well known for it's customization, and you can really pad out your desktop to be an ergonomic and customized place designed for you. MacOS, on the other hand, is practically the definition of fighting your OS: you aren't allowed to have a proper package manager, Apple has to drip-feed you old coreutils through their notoriously slow XCode service, and now you aren't even allowed to use a VPN without Apple disabling it on some of their apps. I don't really see how a Mac elevates your workflow that much, especially when most of your praise seems to be towards GNU tools and your Linux machines.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  Linux users clearly have an echo chamber too.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  The VPN thing has been fixed months ago.
- kergonath 5y ago
  Linux is more customisable, but macOS is much, much better out of the box. I use both every day for about the same amount of time, and macOS requires much less fighting to get the basics right (i.e. networking and Bluetooth just works, no need to tinker with X or Wayland, printing is much less problematic, OS updates are non-events, etc). I am happy to use Linux at work, but I would never put it on my main computer at home. It’s just too much trouble. > you aren't allowed to have a proper package manager I don’t know why you say that there is no package manager. This is demonstrably false. It’s just a different update mechanism than the core OS, which hasn’t been a problem for about a decade. > Apple has to drip-feed you old coreutils through their notoriously slow XCode service The old coreutils are the result of GPLv3. Latest versions are one command away with your package manager of choice. > now you aren't even allowed to use a VPN without Apple disabling it on some of their apps If you’re alluding to the Little Snitch thing, it had nothing to do with VPNs, and has been fixed AFAIK. Honestly, your points sound like third-hand complaints you’ve heard in an echo chamber. It’s fine if you don’t want to use the OS, but then you don’t need to comment either.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    Well, let's start with the places I take issue with: > OS updates are non-events Big Sur and Catalina have been the most disastrous updates in MacOS history. I'm not really sure why you'd choose now to highlight their notorious stability and ease of use. Ask any sysadmin who had a fleet of Macbooks during this update cycle: it was a nightmare and a half. Failing that, ask them about Catalina. They might run and hide under the table, a lot of them are still a little skittish about the word. > I don’t know why you say that there is no package manager. This is demonstrably false. Brew and Macports both suck. If you use Linux on a daily basis, then you're well familiar with what a good package manager looks like: apt and Pacman are both good examples. The amount of software on either of those platforms default providers makes Macports and Brew look like a pathetic joke. Add in the lack of extensibility offered on them both, the lazy Macports development cycle, Brew's half-correct installation philosophy and how out of place they all feel on MacOS, and you've got yourself a package management system that is just about as helpful as 'make install'ing it yourself. > The old coreutils are the result of GPLv3. Latest versions are one command away with your package manager of choice. The ball is in Apple's court then. If they want to brag about being a real Unix system, the least they can do is ship modern Unix tools with their OS. Ironically, MacOS is the least compatible Unix system around. > If you’re alluding to the Little Snitch thing, it had nothing to do with VPNs, and has been fixed AFAIK. No, I'm referring to the fact that Apple gives divided their networking API into privileged and non-privileged systems as of Big Sur. Now, Apple can designate certain developers (and themselves) a way to circumvent any custom network filters when sending data. > Honestly, your points sound like third-hand complaints you’ve heard in an echo chamber. It’s fine if you don’t want to use the OS, but then you don’t need to comment either. I mean, the M1 Macbook Air is sitting in my desk as we speak. I've also run MacOS on my beloved Thinkpad(s), but even the magic of a touchscreen Mac couldn't really persuade me to like the operating system. My guff is well founded, I think: as the most valuable company in the world, Apple has an obligation to provide at least some level of modularity in their ecosystem. Otherwise, the precedent they set will continue to influence every market we can conceive, until our concept of "ownership" is poisoned to mean a subscription service. It's driven by greed, and makes me sick. It always comes at the cost of the user, and the declining greatness of MacOS is a perfect example of how Apple's hunger for money is poisoning their product line.
- f6v 5y ago
  > I think that's a mantra that applies a little better to Linux than it does MacOS. You might be right. But Linux vs MacOS argument is meaningless. For me it's "Linux laptop" vs "MacOS laptop", and there's a huge difference in 2021.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  >>I don't have to fight my OS. > I think that's a mantra that applies a little better to Linux than it does MacOS. Linux is well known for it's customization > pad out your desktop to be You've just described fighting your OS. I mean, sure, if you like customizing things and "padding your desktop", knock yourself out. The last thing I want to do on my machine is spending any time doing that. > I don't really see how a Mac elevates your workflow that much You listed package manager, coreutils, and VPN. That.... That is a minuscule part of a programmer's workflow. And for the vast majority of people who end up using Macs as their development machines these three are a non-issue.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    > You've just described fighting your OS. It's only fighting if it wasn't designed for it in the first place, which isn't true. Linux (and the software designed for it) will always be modular. Once you have your desktop however you like it, you can backup your dotfiles and call it a days work. Bare git repos do the job almost perfectly. > You listed package manager, coreutils, and VPN. That.... That is a minuscule part of a programmer's workflow. If coreutils and a package manager are "miniscule parts" of a programmers workflow, I'd sure like to see someone program on a Mac without them.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > It's only fighting if it wasn't designed for it in the first place You've completely ignored this: "I mean, sure, if you like customizing things and "padding your desktop", knock yourself out. The last thing I want to do on my machine is spending any time doing that." I have other things in my life than fiddling with arcane configs. > If coreutils and a package manager are "miniscule parts" of a programmers workflow, I'd sure like to see someone program on a Mac without them. Yes. Here you assume that everyone is like you and has the same workflows and desires from a desktop like you. Nope, not everyone. For the past 7 to 8 years brew has served me as a good-enough package manager. It's not perfect, but no package manager is. No idea what your gripe with coreutils is. All of these [1] exist and work just fine out of the box. So yes. Those are incredibly minuscule parts of a programmer's workflow. I've yet to remember any pain points concerning these two in the past 10 years of working on anything from backend in Erlang, Java, C#, Python, Go to frontend in Javascript and Typescript [2]. Granted, one thing you might not want to do is do C/C++ development on a Mac. I don't know the details, a friend of mine does embedded development, and needs a Linux machine for that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GNU_Core_Utilities_commands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GNU_Core_Utilities_com... [2] Well. Two or three times in these 10 years I needed a version that wasn't immediately available in brew, so I had to find out how to install the specific version I required. Installing also involved brew. Installing arcane versions isn't a better experience in Linux either. And LTS versions of Linux can rarely properly install new versions of required packages, much less arcane ones.
- bovermyer 5y ago
  Substitute "more commonly" for "a little better" and you may be right. As I mentioned in another comment, macOS works for me. Linux is more customizable, yes, that is objectively true. But macOS is uniquely structured by default to work how my brain works. Just because something is more malleable does not mean it is the best solution for all people.
kelnos 5y ago
> I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain. It's great that works for you, but that only works for people whose brains are (or have become) attuned to Apple's (often... interesting) ways of doing things.
- bovermyer 5y ago
  I won't deny that. Just because my workflow adheres to the one that macOS best suits does not mean it is the best workflow objectively, or the best workflow for any other individual. It just means that it works well for me.

smoldesu 5y ago

>I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain. I think that's a mantra that applies a little better to Linux than it does MacOS. Linux is well known for it's customization, and you can really pad out your desktop to be an ergonomic and customized place designed for you. MacOS, on the other hand, is practically the definition of fighting your OS: you aren't allowed to have a proper package manager, Apple has to drip-feed you old coreutils through their notoriously slow XCode service, and now you aren't even allowed to use a VPN without Apple disabling it on some of their apps. I don't really see how a Mac elevates your workflow that much, especially when most of your praise seems to be towards GNU tools and your Linux machines.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
Linux users clearly have an echo chamber too.
gjsman-1000 5y ago
The VPN thing has been fixed months ago.
kergonath 5y ago
Linux is more customisable, but macOS is much, much better out of the box. I use both every day for about the same amount of time, and macOS requires much less fighting to get the basics right (i.e. networking and Bluetooth just works, no need to tinker with X or Wayland, printing is much less problematic, OS updates are non-events, etc). I am happy to use Linux at work, but I would never put it on my main computer at home. It’s just too much trouble. > you aren't allowed to have a proper package manager I don’t know why you say that there is no package manager. This is demonstrably false. It’s just a different update mechanism than the core OS, which hasn’t been a problem for about a decade. > Apple has to drip-feed you old coreutils through their notoriously slow XCode service The old coreutils are the result of GPLv3. Latest versions are one command away with your package manager of choice. > now you aren't even allowed to use a VPN without Apple disabling it on some of their apps If you’re alluding to the Little Snitch thing, it had nothing to do with VPNs, and has been fixed AFAIK. Honestly, your points sound like third-hand complaints you’ve heard in an echo chamber. It’s fine if you don’t want to use the OS, but then you don’t need to comment either.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Well, let's start with the places I take issue with: > OS updates are non-events Big Sur and Catalina have been the most disastrous updates in MacOS history. I'm not really sure why you'd choose now to highlight their notorious stability and ease of use. Ask any sysadmin who had a fleet of Macbooks during this update cycle: it was a nightmare and a half. Failing that, ask them about Catalina. They might run and hide under the table, a lot of them are still a little skittish about the word. > I don’t know why you say that there is no package manager. This is demonstrably false. Brew and Macports both suck. If you use Linux on a daily basis, then you're well familiar with what a good package manager looks like: apt and Pacman are both good examples. The amount of software on either of those platforms default providers makes Macports and Brew look like a pathetic joke. Add in the lack of extensibility offered on them both, the lazy Macports development cycle, Brew's half-correct installation philosophy and how out of place they all feel on MacOS, and you've got yourself a package management system that is just about as helpful as 'make install'ing it yourself. > The old coreutils are the result of GPLv3. Latest versions are one command away with your package manager of choice. The ball is in Apple's court then. If they want to brag about being a real Unix system, the least they can do is ship modern Unix tools with their OS. Ironically, MacOS is the least compatible Unix system around. > If you’re alluding to the Little Snitch thing, it had nothing to do with VPNs, and has been fixed AFAIK. No, I'm referring to the fact that Apple gives divided their networking API into privileged and non-privileged systems as of Big Sur. Now, Apple can designate certain developers (and themselves) a way to circumvent any custom network filters when sending data. > Honestly, your points sound like third-hand complaints you’ve heard in an echo chamber. It’s fine if you don’t want to use the OS, but then you don’t need to comment either. I mean, the M1 Macbook Air is sitting in my desk as we speak. I've also run MacOS on my beloved Thinkpad(s), but even the magic of a touchscreen Mac couldn't really persuade me to like the operating system. My guff is well founded, I think: as the most valuable company in the world, Apple has an obligation to provide at least some level of modularity in their ecosystem. Otherwise, the precedent they set will continue to influence every market we can conceive, until our concept of "ownership" is poisoned to mean a subscription service. It's driven by greed, and makes me sick. It always comes at the cost of the user, and the declining greatness of MacOS is a perfect example of how Apple's hunger for money is poisoning their product line.
f6v 5y ago
> I think that's a mantra that applies a little better to Linux than it does MacOS. You might be right. But Linux vs MacOS argument is meaningless. For me it's "Linux laptop" vs "MacOS laptop", and there's a huge difference in 2021.
dmitriid 5y ago
>>I don't have to fight my OS. > I think that's a mantra that applies a little better to Linux than it does MacOS. Linux is well known for it's customization > pad out your desktop to be You've just described fighting your OS. I mean, sure, if you like customizing things and "padding your desktop", knock yourself out. The last thing I want to do on my machine is spending any time doing that. > I don't really see how a Mac elevates your workflow that much You listed package manager, coreutils, and VPN. That.... That is a minuscule part of a programmer's workflow. And for the vast majority of people who end up using Macs as their development machines these three are a non-issue.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  > You've just described fighting your OS. It's only fighting if it wasn't designed for it in the first place, which isn't true. Linux (and the software designed for it) will always be modular. Once you have your desktop however you like it, you can backup your dotfiles and call it a days work. Bare git repos do the job almost perfectly. > You listed package manager, coreutils, and VPN. That.... That is a minuscule part of a programmer's workflow. If coreutils and a package manager are "miniscule parts" of a programmers workflow, I'd sure like to see someone program on a Mac without them.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > It's only fighting if it wasn't designed for it in the first place You've completely ignored this: "I mean, sure, if you like customizing things and "padding your desktop", knock yourself out. The last thing I want to do on my machine is spending any time doing that." I have other things in my life than fiddling with arcane configs. > If coreutils and a package manager are "miniscule parts" of a programmers workflow, I'd sure like to see someone program on a Mac without them. Yes. Here you assume that everyone is like you and has the same workflows and desires from a desktop like you. Nope, not everyone. For the past 7 to 8 years brew has served me as a good-enough package manager. It's not perfect, but no package manager is. No idea what your gripe with coreutils is. All of these [1] exist and work just fine out of the box. So yes. Those are incredibly minuscule parts of a programmer's workflow. I've yet to remember any pain points concerning these two in the past 10 years of working on anything from backend in Erlang, Java, C#, Python, Go to frontend in Javascript and Typescript [2]. Granted, one thing you might not want to do is do C/C++ development on a Mac. I don't know the details, a friend of mine does embedded development, and needs a Linux machine for that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GNU_Core_Utilities_commands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GNU_Core_Utilities_com... [2] Well. Two or three times in these 10 years I needed a version that wasn't immediately available in brew, so I had to find out how to install the specific version I required. Installing also involved brew. Installing arcane versions isn't a better experience in Linux either. And LTS versions of Linux can rarely properly install new versions of required packages, much less arcane ones.
bovermyer 5y ago
Substitute "more commonly" for "a little better" and you may be right. As I mentioned in another comment, macOS works for me. Linux is more customizable, yes, that is objectively true. But macOS is uniquely structured by default to work how my brain works. Just because something is more malleable does not mean it is the best solution for all people.

kelnos 5y ago

> I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain. It's great that works for you, but that only works for people whose brains are (or have become) attuned to Apple's (often... interesting) ways of doing things.

bovermyer 5y ago
I won't deny that. Just because my workflow adheres to the one that macOS best suits does not mean it is the best workflow objectively, or the best workflow for any other individual. It just means that it works well for me.