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Perhaps an unpopular opinion but I don't think these concepts should be taught as part of a BS program for Computer Science. Teaching tools of the trade is, we

Perhaps an unpopular opinion but I don't think these concepts should be taught as part of a BS program for Computer Science. Teaching tools of the trade is, well, a trade school thing. I suppose you have to decide if the degree program is more like "Prep school for FAANG" or a program to teach people how to be computer scientists. When I see classes like this I flashback to the required "Problem Solving" class I had to take as part of my CS degree which was a full semester of "How many windows are there in NYC?" or "How many bowling balls fit inside a Boeing 747?" Biggest waste of time considering Google and the like had moved on to HackerRank/LeetCode style questions years ago. Coming from a school that's known as a good technical/engineering school I found the CS program to be a bit lacking on the "CS" part. Lots of outdated classes on "how to develop for the web/mobile" and such.

nkozyra 5y ago
> Teaching tools of the trade is, well, a trade school thing Where do you draw the line? If you don't have tools and knowledge of tools you're not going very far in a "pure CS" degree, either. I'm watching the git/VCS one now and it's still touching a great deal on CS concepts, so it's not just "here's 10 git commands"
- llbeansandrice 5y ago
  This general idea is something I've been sitting on for a while so I don't have full thoughts. These skills (VCS, debugging, etc.) are incredibly important in being a software engineer and could certainly have a place. I think I'm likely to fall on either side of the fence depending on how things are implemented in any given case. I have a bit of "PTSD" so to speak from my degree program. Lots of checkboxes for focuses in your major or minors to be awarded for taking a bunch of outdated classes that were largely things like "How to use Android Studio" rather than a more generalized class on "programming for mobile". I think what happened in my program is the department saw things students needed in order to be successful in the field: learning to program for mobile/web, cyber security, etc. And instead of putting together good classes on the theory and backbone of those areas they created a bunch of "trade" electives that got outdated before they printed the syllabus. Also the vast majority of students took an internship in the field myself included, and on the job was where I learned a lot about trade related concepts like VCS, flavor-of-the-week Agile, etc. I just don't want to see CS degree programs become expensive and outdated bootcamps and that's the direction I feel my alma mater's CS program was heading in a lot of ways.
gknoy 5y ago
> Teaching tools of the trade is, well, a trade school thing I disagree. So much of our computing literacy is in how to _use_ the systems, and understanding concepts of using the shell, debuggers, source control, etc. I see these kind of classes as more similar to the foundational courses in math you take before you dive into Calculus. If you haven't studied algebra, or memorized arithmetic facts, it's going to be very rough if you start into graph theory and Calculs I. Math and science majors already have students who have spent literal years being exposed to concepts before they get to college.
bcrosby95 5y ago
I disagree. These are tools that are useful in school. Luckily I took a Unix class early on and learned shell tools, scripting, and vim, but I certainly wish I knew about version control earlier.
philsnow 5y ago
Maybe what you want is for astronomy to be about looking at stars, not building telescopes. Less flippantly: I think everybody knows that "computer science" BA/BS programs are feeders for the industry (almost exclusively in both directions -- it's hard to get an industry job without a BSCS and the overwhelming majority of BSCS go into industry instead of academia, more so than other bachelors programs). There are people who wish there were separate tracks for academic-minded folks and industry-minded folks, but young industry-minded folks generally don't want to go to a "trade school"s, they want to go to college and enjoy college culture before they go into industry.
- llbeansandrice 5y ago
  I said this in another comment less succinctly but I think I'm sensitive to these types of classes because my degree program was chock-full of electives that were basically outdated bootcamps for web dev, mobile dev, cyber security, etc. So I'm generally hesitant to classes that can easily become "Here's how to use Android Studio".
gumby 5y ago
this is not an official course; it's taught during January which is a "free" month between semesters. And it was written and run by students, not faculty.

nkozyra 5y ago

> Teaching tools of the trade is, well, a trade school thing Where do you draw the line? If you don't have tools and knowledge of tools you're not going very far in a "pure CS" degree, either. I'm watching the git/VCS one now and it's still touching a great deal on CS concepts, so it's not just "here's 10 git commands"

llbeansandrice 5y ago
This general idea is something I've been sitting on for a while so I don't have full thoughts. These skills (VCS, debugging, etc.) are incredibly important in being a software engineer and could certainly have a place. I think I'm likely to fall on either side of the fence depending on how things are implemented in any given case. I have a bit of "PTSD" so to speak from my degree program. Lots of checkboxes for focuses in your major or minors to be awarded for taking a bunch of outdated classes that were largely things like "How to use Android Studio" rather than a more generalized class on "programming for mobile". I think what happened in my program is the department saw things students needed in order to be successful in the field: learning to program for mobile/web, cyber security, etc. And instead of putting together good classes on the theory and backbone of those areas they created a bunch of "trade" electives that got outdated before they printed the syllabus. Also the vast majority of students took an internship in the field myself included, and on the job was where I learned a lot about trade related concepts like VCS, flavor-of-the-week Agile, etc. I just don't want to see CS degree programs become expensive and outdated bootcamps and that's the direction I feel my alma mater's CS program was heading in a lot of ways.

gknoy 5y ago

> Teaching tools of the trade is, well, a trade school thing I disagree. So much of our computing literacy is in how to _use_ the systems, and understanding concepts of using the shell, debuggers, source control, etc. I see these kind of classes as more similar to the foundational courses in math you take before you dive into Calculus. If you haven't studied algebra, or memorized arithmetic facts, it's going to be very rough if you start into graph theory and Calculs I. Math and science majors already have students who have spent literal years being exposed to concepts before they get to college.

bcrosby95 5y ago

I disagree. These are tools that are useful in school. Luckily I took a Unix class early on and learned shell tools, scripting, and vim, but I certainly wish I knew about version control earlier.

philsnow 5y ago

Maybe what you want is for astronomy to be about looking at stars, not building telescopes. Less flippantly: I think everybody knows that "computer science" BA/BS programs are feeders for the industry (almost exclusively in both directions -- it's hard to get an industry job without a BSCS and the overwhelming majority of BSCS go into industry instead of academia, more so than other bachelors programs). There are people who wish there were separate tracks for academic-minded folks and industry-minded folks, but young industry-minded folks generally don't want to go to a "trade school"s, they want to go to college and enjoy college culture before they go into industry.

llbeansandrice 5y ago
I said this in another comment less succinctly but I think I'm sensitive to these types of classes because my degree program was chock-full of electives that were basically outdated bootcamps for web dev, mobile dev, cyber security, etc. So I'm generally hesitant to classes that can easily become "Here's how to use Android Studio".

gumby 5y ago

this is not an official course; it's taught during January which is a "free" month between semesters. And it was written and run by students, not faculty.