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To dip my toe into somewhat-dangerous waters, I suspect that if there's a major and highly effective filter other than simple interest (as some data re: more- a

To dip my toe into somewhat-dangerous waters, I suspect that if there's a major and highly effective filter other than simple interest (as some data re: more- and less-restrictive societies suggests) keeping women out of CS, it's mainly this preference (by CS programs) for experienced long-time computer geeks in CS freshmen classes, and hostility to those who aren't. Which is still, kind-of, an interest-related filter, but a bit of an odd and harsh one that punishes not having taken a strong interest very early. You're not going to meet that kind of abrupt and early resistance on the path to becoming a doctor because you didn't spend tons of your free time as far back as junior high reading anatomy books or practicing dissection, for instance.

ghaff 5y ago
I don't think it's the only factor but it's been my belief for a long time that it's one factor. If you assume 18 year olds entering CS programs started to widely use computers and game consoles as kids in the mid to late 80s, that lines up well with the decline in women entering CS. [1] Again, there are almost certainly other factors, and correlation is not causation, but there is at least logical correlation. To your broader point, a lot of kids enter college with only a broad idea of what they want to do. And high school courses don't really offer much guidance. High school science classes have very little to do with their counterparts at good colleges. [1] https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declining-female-share-of-computer-science-degrees-from-28-to-18/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declinin...
- moshmosh 5y ago
  Right, agreed on that not being the only factor, but I do think it's suspiciously-sufficient-looking to explain why CS was becoming a boys' club even as women were reaching parity with men in terms of proportion-of-the-sexes in medicine and law, and to some extent business more generally. "Computer nerds are so remarkably and uniquely sexist that they not only avoided this trend, but sharply reversed it" has never... quite rung true to me. Again (because you have to over-specify on this topic or risk angering people) not because there's no sexism among computer nerds or computer companies, but just because I don't get why programming/CS would be uniquely afflicted with that, to such an apparently huge—in order to explain the sharp difference—degree. Meanwhile there are definitely a lot of gatekeeping-assumptions about childhood interests in modern CS programs, which one would expect to have gotten stronger as more and more freshmen actually could have had experience with computers on their own—so, starting with late-80s freshmen, mostly, with the effect getting stronger fast after that. That lines up so well with the data on CS-program-enrollment-by-sex that it seems to me like the factor to examine before we go looking for other explanations. Again, to be excessively explicit due to the topic, I mean this in terms of accounting for the gender gap in programming, not in terms of addressing any other issues of sexism in the industry, which I am not denying exist.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    There are some fields--notably within engineering, mechanical engineering--where women have historically had low participation. But one probably doesn't need to examine gender stereotypes too deeply to see why that might be the case. But there haven't been the large shifts there we've seen with CS.
908B64B197 5y ago
> You're not going to meet that kind of abrupt and early resistance on the path to becoming a doctor It's much more inclusive indeed. If you can afford the mandatory completely unrelated undergrad you need to have completed to even apply to med school and the travel fees to attend your in-person interviews of course.
- moshmosh 5y ago
  Yeah, the educational commitment is definitely much higher. I just mean they don't expect you to have put hundreds of evenings, Saturdays, and Summer afternoons into wholly-self-motivated learning about the field by the time you're 18, or else have a very rough first couple years.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > I just mean they don't expect you to have put hundreds of evenings, Saturdays, and Summer afternoons into wholly-self-motivated learning about the field No, instead it's unrelated to the field so you can grind fractions of GPAs against other applicants. At least, CS is kind enough to let everyone try the real thing.

ghaff 5y ago

I don't think it's the only factor but it's been my belief for a long time that it's one factor. If you assume 18 year olds entering CS programs started to widely use computers and game consoles as kids in the mid to late 80s, that lines up well with the decline in women entering CS. [1] Again, there are almost certainly other factors, and correlation is not causation, but there is at least logical correlation. To your broader point, a lot of kids enter college with only a broad idea of what they want to do. And high school courses don't really offer much guidance. High school science classes have very little to do with their counterparts at good colleges. [1] https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declining-female-share-of-computer-science-degrees-from-28-to-18/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declinin...

moshmosh 5y ago
Right, agreed on that not being the only factor, but I do think it's suspiciously-sufficient-looking to explain why CS was becoming a boys' club even as women were reaching parity with men in terms of proportion-of-the-sexes in medicine and law, and to some extent business more generally. "Computer nerds are so remarkably and uniquely sexist that they not only avoided this trend, but sharply reversed it" has never... quite rung true to me. Again (because you have to over-specify on this topic or risk angering people) not because there's no sexism among computer nerds or computer companies, but just because I don't get why programming/CS would be uniquely afflicted with that, to such an apparently huge—in order to explain the sharp difference—degree. Meanwhile there are definitely a lot of gatekeeping-assumptions about childhood interests in modern CS programs, which one would expect to have gotten stronger as more and more freshmen actually could have had experience with computers on their own—so, starting with late-80s freshmen, mostly, with the effect getting stronger fast after that. That lines up so well with the data on CS-program-enrollment-by-sex that it seems to me like the factor to examine before we go looking for other explanations. Again, to be excessively explicit due to the topic, I mean this in terms of accounting for the gender gap in programming, not in terms of addressing any other issues of sexism in the industry, which I am not denying exist.
- ghaff 5y ago
  There are some fields--notably within engineering, mechanical engineering--where women have historically had low participation. But one probably doesn't need to examine gender stereotypes too deeply to see why that might be the case. But there haven't been the large shifts there we've seen with CS.

908B64B197 5y ago

> You're not going to meet that kind of abrupt and early resistance on the path to becoming a doctor It's much more inclusive indeed. If you can afford the mandatory completely unrelated undergrad you need to have completed to even apply to med school and the travel fees to attend your in-person interviews of course.

moshmosh 5y ago
Yeah, the educational commitment is definitely much higher. I just mean they don't expect you to have put hundreds of evenings, Saturdays, and Summer afternoons into wholly-self-motivated learning about the field by the time you're 18, or else have a very rough first couple years.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > I just mean they don't expect you to have put hundreds of evenings, Saturdays, and Summer afternoons into wholly-self-motivated learning about the field No, instead it's unrelated to the field so you can grind fractions of GPAs against other applicants. At least, CS is kind enough to let everyone try the real thing.