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As another non-Chinese Asian, really? You don’t want to be lumped in with the Chinese so it’s easier to know who the “bad ones” are? I hate this rhetoric. When

As another non-Chinese Asian, really? You don’t want to be lumped in with the Chinese so it’s easier to know who the “bad ones” are? I hate this rhetoric. Whenever a hate crime occurs, it’s so common to hear “they didn’t deserve that, they’re not even Chinese!”. As though being Chinese would make it ok. It’s easy to forget that 3 decades ago, people were saying the same thing about Japan as they’re saying about China now. The people who want to hate Asians will find a reason.

magicsmoke 5y ago
It might be interesting to compare the treatment of Italian-Americans and German-Americans to Japanese-Americans in WW1 and WW2. Relatively few Italian and German-Americans were interned in comparison. Meanwhile, the hostility towards Japanese-Americans spilled over to Chinese-Americans despite China being invaded and allied with the US, leading to Chinese-Americans having to explicitly distinguish their racial identity while out in public as here: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/chinese-americans-during-ww2-1941/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/chinese-americans-during-ww... The fact of the matter is, being a visible ethnic minority come with challenges in addition to being just an ethnic minority. If you are visually similar to the ethnic target of the day, whether or not you actually have links with them, you automatically get hit as collateral damage whether you like it or not. German and Italian Americans could blend in and stay out of the spotlight during the world wars. Japanese, Chinese, and other Asian Americans could not and still cannot, and their visual appearance forces them to share the same spotlight. No matter how varied the Asian experience may be, the Pan-Asian identity will continue to exist because identity is not just a product what you think of yourself, but what others think of you and how they interact with you.
- xbar 5y ago
  Agree: multiple visually similar ethnic minorities probably experience "spillover" racial hatred when any of them is does. Internment is a good example. Disagree: German and Italian Americans experienced (and experience) ongoing racial prejudice. Cultural differences are very easy to spot and target for discrimination even when racial body features are not.
- m0llusk 5y ago
  That situation is more complex than you imply. My German immigrant ancestors, for example, survived anti-German sentiment during and after the war by denying their heritage and giving up things like the communal making of barrels of sauerkraut, making Lumberger cheese, and of course most of all: speaking German. So they survived okay, but only with their culture completely assimilated.
  - magicsmoke 5y ago
    The difference for visible ethnic minorities though is that even with your culture completely assimilated, you cannot hide your racial appearance and people will still treat you based on it. Plenty of Asian-Americans are 2+ generations in America little to no connection with their language and culture, completely assimilated as you say. They're still targeted just because of their appearance, assimilation does nothing to help protect them. For German and Italian Americans, at least assimilation has the intended effect. I suspect there's probably some anger behind assimilating and tossing away cultural roots and identity only to find out it was absolutely pointless that's helping to drive the upsurge in recent Asian-American movements.
    - fidesomnes 5y ago
      This has to be low IQ bait.
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    My German ancestor had a different experience. Perhaps he had to do this for a while after first arriving in Canada, but by the time I was born he was a part of a rich and thriving German community in the town I grew up in. I have many good memories of going to events at the German club growing up, singing German christmas carols in December, all of that stuff. I guess it depends on the region.
klmadfejno 5y ago
>As another non-Chinese Asian, really? You don’t want to be lumped in with the Chinese so it’s easier to know who the “bad ones” are? > I hate this rhetoric. Whenever a hate crime occurs, it’s so common to hear “they didn’t deserve that, they’re not even Chinese!”. As though being Chinese would make it ok. I don't condone hate crimes, and I don't hold any hostility to people of Chinese descent. But the CCP is a hostile nation, which in my opinion is engaging in liberal cyber warfare against western countries, committing genocide within its borders, and aggressively expanding its geopolitical influence across the globe. I think the CCP is evil. And yes, the United States government is full of bad actors as well, but I think the CCP is much worse and much more dystopian. The converse of saying Muslims aren't accountable for the acts of Muslim extremists, is saying that supporters of Muslim extremists are accountable. Which really shouldn't be a controversial statement. You put "bad ones" in quotes to imply that there are no bad ones. I don't agree. A difficult conversation here is that while the majority of Muslims were not violent extremists, the majority of Chinese citizens are CCP supporters. It isn't a fringe belief, even among those living outside of China. That doesn't justifying profiling someone based on appearance or committing a hate crime either way, but to put it bluntly, if someone says they support the CCP, I think they support a hostile enemy nation, on some spectrum of naivety/indifference to clarity/purpose, not unlike how I would respond to hearing someone is in the KKK. Most are probably just underinformed or misinformed, but its a dangerous state. Forget brutish idiots who just hate squinty eyes. Yes, they're just assholes. Perception of China as an enemy nation is growing, and as a reactionary force, many people are calling this a racist movement because they want their Chinese friends and neighbors to feel comfortable in this country. I too have many Chinese friends. But your cultural heritage and ethnic origin are distinct from your government and geopolitical beliefs. It may require difficult conversations, and it may not lead to amicable outcomes, but I hope the national dialogue can sort out this nuance. Chinese culture is awesome. > It’s easy to forget that 3 decades ago, people were saying the same thing about Japan as they’re saying about China now. 3 decades ago? Like in the 80s? I know Japan was seen as a rising economic power, but I don't think the perception was similar to that of China today, which is seen as a potential military threat among other things. I'm not especially well versed here though.
xbar 5y ago
No one deserves racial discrimination or hatred. Politically, I am sympathetic to anyone would want to put as much distance between themselves and the CCP, Chinese or not. It is hard to speak about the CCP without saying "the Chinese" and immediately sounding racist when the comment has nothing to do with race. That is the problem with overloaded terms. Also, no one was saying things about Japan that they are saying about the CCP. There was great fear about the economic power of Japan. In terms of human rights and influence and military and pollution and human rights, the narrative was completely different.
- Bukhmanizer 5y ago
  > Politically, I am sympathetic to anyone would want to put as much distance between themselves and the CCP, Chinese or not. Okay, but if how close I am to the CCP is seen as a function of how I look and where I’m from, then what the fuck am I supposed to do? Walk around in white-face with a big American flag and tell people I’m from Kansas? The problem is that people are inferring political beliefs from how people look or their race or their nationality. Regarding Japan, the narrative was different, but the sentiments were similar. Vincent Chin was murdered for being Japanese (although he was Chinese) and his murderers only got a $3000 fine.
  - klmadfejno 5y ago
    And those assholes can fuck off. But are they really that numerous? Are they driving the cultural narrative? I think no, and in the areas where this is the case, I think it's probably more of a white vs. not white thing which is a whole other bag of worms.
elefanten 5y ago
This is an egregious strawman of gp’s comment. Gp plainly specified that they mean to distinguish between people of Chinese descent and CCP supporters. And there’s really no other way to play it if you oppose the CCP’s behavior and vision of international order. The Japan example is ultimately a bad comparison. On the American side, it was much more transitory and contained narrative. On the counterparty side, the CCP is being much more openly hostile and normalizing atrocious, anachronistic state behavior. Edit to add: Your closing attitude betrays a lot. If you are convinced in advance that American society writ large is determined to hate Asians, that is what you will contort your view to see. Further telling you ignored the data gp presented.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Bukhmanizer 5y ago
  > Gp plainly specified that they mean to distinguish between people of Chinese descent and CCP supporters. No, they plainly specified that they wanted to distinguish between other Asians and Chinese, and of the Chinese between CCP and non-CCP supporters. But in another comment they note that the majority of Chinese are CCP supporters anyway. Let me ask, what do you think the end effect of this “racial distinguishing” is? What do we do once we’ve identified the “problematic ones”? How would such a system be implemented? Anyone could just claim to be non- Chinese/CCP supporters. Perhaps, a tattoo?
  - klmadfejno 5y ago
    Obviously its by not assuming someone is a CCP supporter unless they voice this opinion. I did not say anything to the effect of harm or violence against people who support the CCP. But I think a stronger level of national comfort discussing the CCP as a hostile state would be beneficial. My thesis is this: a growing population of Americans believe the CCP is hostile. A very small minority of Americans are violent and act on appearance alone. A band of thugs should not get to set the tone that America is becoming racist against Asians. The reality is that a nation state is growing in moral and geopolitical transgressions, and that is what people are upset about. You don't need to profile anyone. But if someone says "I hate the CCP" and harasses a Korean person. That person is awful, but it doesn't make this a collective struggle. The presence of racists does not define a cultural consensus that hatred of asians is growing. If there's a 100% in hate crimes against asians, and a 10000% person increase in negative feelings towards the CCP, I guarantee you, nobody will feel more hostile towards the CCP that non-CCP aligned asians.

magicsmoke 5y ago

It might be interesting to compare the treatment of Italian-Americans and German-Americans to Japanese-Americans in WW1 and WW2. Relatively few Italian and German-Americans were interned in comparison. Meanwhile, the hostility towards Japanese-Americans spilled over to Chinese-Americans despite China being invaded and allied with the US, leading to Chinese-Americans having to explicitly distinguish their racial identity while out in public as here: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/chinese-americans-during-ww2-1941/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/chinese-americans-during-ww... The fact of the matter is, being a visible ethnic minority come with challenges in addition to being just an ethnic minority. If you are visually similar to the ethnic target of the day, whether or not you actually have links with them, you automatically get hit as collateral damage whether you like it or not. German and Italian Americans could blend in and stay out of the spotlight during the world wars. Japanese, Chinese, and other Asian Americans could not and still cannot, and their visual appearance forces them to share the same spotlight. No matter how varied the Asian experience may be, the Pan-Asian identity will continue to exist because identity is not just a product what you think of yourself, but what others think of you and how they interact with you.

xbar 5y ago
Agree: multiple visually similar ethnic minorities probably experience "spillover" racial hatred when any of them is does. Internment is a good example. Disagree: German and Italian Americans experienced (and experience) ongoing racial prejudice. Cultural differences are very easy to spot and target for discrimination even when racial body features are not.
m0llusk 5y ago
That situation is more complex than you imply. My German immigrant ancestors, for example, survived anti-German sentiment during and after the war by denying their heritage and giving up things like the communal making of barrels of sauerkraut, making Lumberger cheese, and of course most of all: speaking German. So they survived okay, but only with their culture completely assimilated.
- magicsmoke 5y ago
  The difference for visible ethnic minorities though is that even with your culture completely assimilated, you cannot hide your racial appearance and people will still treat you based on it. Plenty of Asian-Americans are 2+ generations in America little to no connection with their language and culture, completely assimilated as you say. They're still targeted just because of their appearance, assimilation does nothing to help protect them. For German and Italian Americans, at least assimilation has the intended effect. I suspect there's probably some anger behind assimilating and tossing away cultural roots and identity only to find out it was absolutely pointless that's helping to drive the upsurge in recent Asian-American movements.
  - fidesomnes 5y ago
    This has to be low IQ bait.
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  My German ancestor had a different experience. Perhaps he had to do this for a while after first arriving in Canada, but by the time I was born he was a part of a rich and thriving German community in the town I grew up in. I have many good memories of going to events at the German club growing up, singing German christmas carols in December, all of that stuff. I guess it depends on the region.

klmadfejno 5y ago

>As another non-Chinese Asian, really? You don’t want to be lumped in with the Chinese so it’s easier to know who the “bad ones” are? > I hate this rhetoric. Whenever a hate crime occurs, it’s so common to hear “they didn’t deserve that, they’re not even Chinese!”. As though being Chinese would make it ok. I don't condone hate crimes, and I don't hold any hostility to people of Chinese descent. But the CCP is a hostile nation, which in my opinion is engaging in liberal cyber warfare against western countries, committing genocide within its borders, and aggressively expanding its geopolitical influence across the globe. I think the CCP is evil. And yes, the United States government is full of bad actors as well, but I think the CCP is much worse and much more dystopian. The converse of saying Muslims aren't accountable for the acts of Muslim extremists, is saying that supporters of Muslim extremists are accountable. Which really shouldn't be a controversial statement. You put "bad ones" in quotes to imply that there are no bad ones. I don't agree. A difficult conversation here is that while the majority of Muslims were not violent extremists, the majority of Chinese citizens are CCP supporters. It isn't a fringe belief, even among those living outside of China. That doesn't justifying profiling someone based on appearance or committing a hate crime either way, but to put it bluntly, if someone says they support the CCP, I think they support a hostile enemy nation, on some spectrum of naivety/indifference to clarity/purpose, not unlike how I would respond to hearing someone is in the KKK. Most are probably just underinformed or misinformed, but its a dangerous state. Forget brutish idiots who just hate squinty eyes. Yes, they're just assholes. Perception of China as an enemy nation is growing, and as a reactionary force, many people are calling this a racist movement because they want their Chinese friends and neighbors to feel comfortable in this country. I too have many Chinese friends. But your cultural heritage and ethnic origin are distinct from your government and geopolitical beliefs. It may require difficult conversations, and it may not lead to amicable outcomes, but I hope the national dialogue can sort out this nuance. Chinese culture is awesome. > It’s easy to forget that 3 decades ago, people were saying the same thing about Japan as they’re saying about China now. 3 decades ago? Like in the 80s? I know Japan was seen as a rising economic power, but I don't think the perception was similar to that of China today, which is seen as a potential military threat among other things. I'm not especially well versed here though.

xbar 5y ago

No one deserves racial discrimination or hatred. Politically, I am sympathetic to anyone would want to put as much distance between themselves and the CCP, Chinese or not. It is hard to speak about the CCP without saying "the Chinese" and immediately sounding racist when the comment has nothing to do with race. That is the problem with overloaded terms. Also, no one was saying things about Japan that they are saying about the CCP. There was great fear about the economic power of Japan. In terms of human rights and influence and military and pollution and human rights, the narrative was completely different.

Bukhmanizer 5y ago
> Politically, I am sympathetic to anyone would want to put as much distance between themselves and the CCP, Chinese or not. Okay, but if how close I am to the CCP is seen as a function of how I look and where I’m from, then what the fuck am I supposed to do? Walk around in white-face with a big American flag and tell people I’m from Kansas? The problem is that people are inferring political beliefs from how people look or their race or their nationality. Regarding Japan, the narrative was different, but the sentiments were similar. Vincent Chin was murdered for being Japanese (although he was Chinese) and his murderers only got a $3000 fine.
- klmadfejno 5y ago
  And those assholes can fuck off. But are they really that numerous? Are they driving the cultural narrative? I think no, and in the areas where this is the case, I think it's probably more of a white vs. not white thing which is a whole other bag of worms.

elefanten 5y ago

This is an egregious strawman of gp’s comment. Gp plainly specified that they mean to distinguish between people of Chinese descent and CCP supporters. And there’s really no other way to play it if you oppose the CCP’s behavior and vision of international order. The Japan example is ultimately a bad comparison. On the American side, it was much more transitory and contained narrative. On the counterparty side, the CCP is being much more openly hostile and normalizing atrocious, anachronistic state behavior. Edit to add: Your closing attitude betrays a lot. If you are convinced in advance that American society writ large is determined to hate Asians, that is what you will contort your view to see. Further telling you ignored the data gp presented.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Bukhmanizer 5y ago
> Gp plainly specified that they mean to distinguish between people of Chinese descent and CCP supporters. No, they plainly specified that they wanted to distinguish between other Asians and Chinese, and of the Chinese between CCP and non-CCP supporters. But in another comment they note that the majority of Chinese are CCP supporters anyway. Let me ask, what do you think the end effect of this “racial distinguishing” is? What do we do once we’ve identified the “problematic ones”? How would such a system be implemented? Anyone could just claim to be non- Chinese/CCP supporters. Perhaps, a tattoo?
- klmadfejno 5y ago
  Obviously its by not assuming someone is a CCP supporter unless they voice this opinion. I did not say anything to the effect of harm or violence against people who support the CCP. But I think a stronger level of national comfort discussing the CCP as a hostile state would be beneficial. My thesis is this: a growing population of Americans believe the CCP is hostile. A very small minority of Americans are violent and act on appearance alone. A band of thugs should not get to set the tone that America is becoming racist against Asians. The reality is that a nation state is growing in moral and geopolitical transgressions, and that is what people are upset about. You don't need to profile anyone. But if someone says "I hate the CCP" and harasses a Korean person. That person is awful, but it doesn't make this a collective struggle. The presence of racists does not define a cultural consensus that hatred of asians is growing. If there's a 100% in hate crimes against asians, and a 10000% person increase in negative feelings towards the CCP, I guarantee you, nobody will feel more hostile towards the CCP that non-CCP aligned asians.