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Realistically, IRC is far from reliable. Netsplits, messages out of order or getting lost, and so on - these are just the problems of having a distributed syste

Realistically, IRC is far from reliable. Netsplits, messages out of order or getting lost, and so on - these are just the problems of having a distributed system of any kind, whether it's a federated network or just a couple of IRC servers. The difference is that IRC doesn't try to address these issues and just lets them happen, whereas Matrix does try and sometimes gets it wrong (more due to implementation bugs than protocol issues). I don't think it's fair to conclude that IRC is "more reliable" on that basis - if anything, I would say that Matrix comes out on top here despite the existing implementation issues. At least it eventually gets things into the right state.

scarygliders 5y ago
Wholeheartedly agree with the above. Also remembering IRC's netsplits resulting in IRC Services being split off and resultant and inevitable chaos when the netsplits end.
- welterde 5y ago
  It's not really as much of an issue these days as it used to be. And like I said.. you can get that all in a neatly integrated package where you don't have to worry about any of that anymore.
welterde 5y ago
Sure netsplits happen, but at least I can still communicate with people that are on the same side of the split (and know exactly who they are). I never had the same issues as with Slack, Matrix, etc. where I just couldn't communicate at all for > 10 minutes. And frankly I don't really care about it magically back filling the log later on, since the moment has passed. I value "Availability" above all else. And here IRC is unparalleled. And improving upon the netsplits without breaking this aspect is really quite difficult.
- scarygliders 5y ago
  The whole point of Matrix is you run your own matrix-synapse homeserver, so if the people you know are also connecting to your homeserver, and there's a matrix equivalent of a netsplit, you'll still be talking to those on yours - with the bonus of history backfill when your server reconnects to some other federated server. Same happening as IRC - but with a different and more resilient protocol. I also think including Slack along with Matrix is incorrect, as Slack is - like Discord - a centrally controlled walled garden. Matrix is not like those two at all.
  - welterde 5y ago
    That doesn't really help since the home server more corresponds to my irc client (or something like quassel-core or a bouncer) and not a irc server and will just have me as a user and no one else. The Matrix architecture is much closer to the one used by Jabber Multi User Chat (with perhaps a fancier MUC protocol) than IRC.
    - miloignis 5y ago
      That's not true though - you'll still be talking to everyone on every homeserver that yours can reach (or can be reached transitively)! When matrix.org went down for a bit a few years ago, I could talk in the same rooms with everyone on a homeserver that wasn't matrix.org flawlessly, even though the room was first created on matrix.org. I struggle to see how Matrix could be less available than IRC, where I've experienced many more netsplits.
      - welterde 5y ago
        Yes it is possible to mirror rooms, but last I checked that had to be setup manually? Or does synapse do that automatically now? In any case that wasn't my point earlier. That was that I never had the issue on IRC that my homeserver somehow got stuck for several minutes while it did "something" in the room resolution protocol before suddenly catching up all of a sudden. And that I'll take netsplits any day over it being stuck.
agumonkey 5y ago
Yeah it's more about user psychology/ergonomy. A Blunt tool that expose its limit can be preferred to a potentially better one that create more unknown failures. (Not thinking about SDV)

scarygliders 5y ago

Wholeheartedly agree with the above. Also remembering IRC's netsplits resulting in IRC Services being split off and resultant and inevitable chaos when the netsplits end.

welterde 5y ago
It's not really as much of an issue these days as it used to be. And like I said.. you can get that all in a neatly integrated package where you don't have to worry about any of that anymore.

welterde 5y ago

Sure netsplits happen, but at least I can still communicate with people that are on the same side of the split (and know exactly who they are). I never had the same issues as with Slack, Matrix, etc. where I just couldn't communicate at all for > 10 minutes. And frankly I don't really care about it magically back filling the log later on, since the moment has passed. I value "Availability" above all else. And here IRC is unparalleled. And improving upon the netsplits without breaking this aspect is really quite difficult.

scarygliders 5y ago
The whole point of Matrix is you run your own matrix-synapse homeserver, so if the people you know are also connecting to your homeserver, and there's a matrix equivalent of a netsplit, you'll still be talking to those on yours - with the bonus of history backfill when your server reconnects to some other federated server. Same happening as IRC - but with a different and more resilient protocol. I also think including Slack along with Matrix is incorrect, as Slack is - like Discord - a centrally controlled walled garden. Matrix is not like those two at all.
- welterde 5y ago
  That doesn't really help since the home server more corresponds to my irc client (or something like quassel-core or a bouncer) and not a irc server and will just have me as a user and no one else. The Matrix architecture is much closer to the one used by Jabber Multi User Chat (with perhaps a fancier MUC protocol) than IRC.
  - miloignis 5y ago
    That's not true though - you'll still be talking to everyone on every homeserver that yours can reach (or can be reached transitively)! When matrix.org went down for a bit a few years ago, I could talk in the same rooms with everyone on a homeserver that wasn't matrix.org flawlessly, even though the room was first created on matrix.org. I struggle to see how Matrix could be less available than IRC, where I've experienced many more netsplits.
    - welterde 5y ago
      Yes it is possible to mirror rooms, but last I checked that had to be setup manually? Or does synapse do that automatically now? In any case that wasn't my point earlier. That was that I never had the issue on IRC that my homeserver somehow got stuck for several minutes while it did "something" in the room resolution protocol before suddenly catching up all of a sudden. And that I'll take netsplits any day over it being stuck.

agumonkey 5y ago

Yeah it's more about user psychology/ergonomy. A Blunt tool that expose its limit can be preferred to a potentially better one that create more unknown failures. (Not thinking about SDV)