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Now would be an excellent opportunity for those people to move to Matrix. IRC was good, and I still use it, but even I as a 51 years old greybeard unix/linux a

Now would be an excellent opportunity for those people to move to Matrix. IRC was good, and I still use it, but even I as a 51 years old greybeard unix/linux accolyte realise that IRC has had its day. If any of these chaps are reading this, move to Matrix - it'll be more resilient than IRC.

welterde 5y ago
I have given it a fair spin a while ago and I wasn't impressed at all (too many problems.. even with simple 2-person chat). Distributed database based chat isn't really the way to go to get something reliable (where nothing gets even close to IRC). Also there are new modern irc servers around (such as Oragono) that integrate lots of things that are often missed/bolted on externally, like history, bouncer, authentication, etc.
- joepie91_ 5y ago
  Realistically, IRC is far from reliable. Netsplits, messages out of order or getting lost, and so on - these are just the problems of having a distributed system of any kind, whether it's a federated network or just a couple of IRC servers. The difference is that IRC doesn't try to address these issues and just lets them happen, whereas Matrix does try and sometimes gets it wrong (more due to implementation bugs than protocol issues). I don't think it's fair to conclude that IRC is "more reliable" on that basis - if anything, I would say that Matrix comes out on top here despite the existing implementation issues. At least it eventually gets things into the right state.
  - scarygliders 5y ago
    Wholeheartedly agree with the above. Also remembering IRC's netsplits resulting in IRC Services being split off and resultant and inevitable chaos when the netsplits end.
    - welterde 5y ago
      It's not really as much of an issue these days as it used to be. And like I said.. you can get that all in a neatly integrated package where you don't have to worry about any of that anymore.
  - welterde 5y ago
    Sure netsplits happen, but at least I can still communicate with people that are on the same side of the split (and know exactly who they are). I never had the same issues as with Slack, Matrix, etc. where I just couldn't communicate at all for > 10 minutes. And frankly I don't really care about it magically back filling the log later on, since the moment has passed. I value "Availability" above all else. And here IRC is unparalleled. And improving upon the netsplits without breaking this aspect is really quite difficult.
    - scarygliders 5y ago
      The whole point of Matrix is you run your own matrix-synapse homeserver, so if the people you know are also connecting to your homeserver, and there's a matrix equivalent of a netsplit, you'll still be talking to those on yours - with the bonus of history backfill when your server reconnects to some other federated server. Same happening as IRC - but with a different and more resilient protocol. I also think including Slack along with Matrix is incorrect, as Slack is - like Discord - a centrally controlled walled garden. Matrix is not like those two at all.
      - welterde 5y ago
        That doesn't really help since the home server more corresponds to my irc client (or something like quassel-core or a bouncer) and not a irc server and will just have me as a user and no one else. The Matrix architecture is much closer to the one used by Jabber Multi User Chat (with perhaps a fancier MUC protocol) than IRC.
        miloignis 5y ago
        That's not true though - you'll still be talking to everyone on every homeserver that yours can reach (or can be reached transitively)! When matrix.org went down for a bit a few years ago, I could talk in the same rooms with everyone on a homeserver that wasn't matrix.org flawlessly, even though the room was first created on matrix.org. I struggle to see how Matrix could be less available than IRC, where I've experienced many more netsplits.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    Yeah it's more about user psychology/ergonomy. A Blunt tool that expose its limit can be preferred to a potentially better one that create more unknown failures. (Not thinking about SDV)
- scarygliders 5y ago
  Try giving it another spin. Matrix-Synapse is under constant development and lots of bugs have been fixed each release. I've found the matrix-synapse homeserver I run to be stable. Along with Element-desktop and the Element android app it's been a great experience for me. With both of those, you don't need to worry about history or bouncers, as history gets synched even if you power down your homeserver and back up again like I do. And authentication comes as a by-product of matrix-synapse/Element. I also love url and picture previews displayed directly in Element (and other clients) by way of synapse - far nicer experience than the text-only of IRC in my opinion. I think IRC has had its day. At least with myself.
  - eptcyka 5y ago
    How does one moderate a room if there are infinite home servers with infinite identities?
    - ta988 5y ago
      I agree Matrix hasn't seen the level of attacks IRC got. Once it has been through that we will see if it is really a viable alternative.
    - miloignis 5y ago
      You can block users or homeservers, or even go allowlist only, I believe.
    - pwr22 5y ago
      I think there's work on some sort of reputation based system but afaik it's not there yet.
  - fps_doug 5y ago
    Disagree. As an open chat platform -- ie. not for private/confidential communications, to me, IRC is still superior to Matrix. We use it at work in parallel to IRC, and it still happens today (at least with elements.io) that a message or two can get lost when you restart your client in an unfortunate moment, and sometimes channel user lists get out of sync, so you're addressing a person that's not there, or suddenly someone replies you don't see in the user list. It's happening rarely, but it does, and it is annoying. IRC's concept of requiring an active TCP connection for your session is archaic but dead simple, and the only times you have to wonder whether or not someone received your message is if they got a ping timeout shortly after, and the user list might get out of sync once in a honeymoon when there's a net-split. Nothing about IRC changes anymore, so you won't get surprised by regressions and bug fixes every month. I can see how people miss long multi-line messages and animated gifs in IRC, but I just don't. It's straight forward text communications, no bullshit.
Fuzzeh 5y ago
LOL No! IRC is still alive and well thanks.

welterde 5y ago

I have given it a fair spin a while ago and I wasn't impressed at all (too many problems.. even with simple 2-person chat). Distributed database based chat isn't really the way to go to get something reliable (where nothing gets even close to IRC). Also there are new modern irc servers around (such as Oragono) that integrate lots of things that are often missed/bolted on externally, like history, bouncer, authentication, etc.

joepie91_ 5y ago
Realistically, IRC is far from reliable. Netsplits, messages out of order or getting lost, and so on - these are just the problems of having a distributed system of any kind, whether it's a federated network or just a couple of IRC servers. The difference is that IRC doesn't try to address these issues and just lets them happen, whereas Matrix does try and sometimes gets it wrong (more due to implementation bugs than protocol issues). I don't think it's fair to conclude that IRC is "more reliable" on that basis - if anything, I would say that Matrix comes out on top here despite the existing implementation issues. At least it eventually gets things into the right state.
- scarygliders 5y ago
  Wholeheartedly agree with the above. Also remembering IRC's netsplits resulting in IRC Services being split off and resultant and inevitable chaos when the netsplits end.
  - welterde 5y ago
    It's not really as much of an issue these days as it used to be. And like I said.. you can get that all in a neatly integrated package where you don't have to worry about any of that anymore.
- welterde 5y ago
  Sure netsplits happen, but at least I can still communicate with people that are on the same side of the split (and know exactly who they are). I never had the same issues as with Slack, Matrix, etc. where I just couldn't communicate at all for > 10 minutes. And frankly I don't really care about it magically back filling the log later on, since the moment has passed. I value "Availability" above all else. And here IRC is unparalleled. And improving upon the netsplits without breaking this aspect is really quite difficult.
  - scarygliders 5y ago
    The whole point of Matrix is you run your own matrix-synapse homeserver, so if the people you know are also connecting to your homeserver, and there's a matrix equivalent of a netsplit, you'll still be talking to those on yours - with the bonus of history backfill when your server reconnects to some other federated server. Same happening as IRC - but with a different and more resilient protocol. I also think including Slack along with Matrix is incorrect, as Slack is - like Discord - a centrally controlled walled garden. Matrix is not like those two at all.
    - welterde 5y ago
      That doesn't really help since the home server more corresponds to my irc client (or something like quassel-core or a bouncer) and not a irc server and will just have me as a user and no one else. The Matrix architecture is much closer to the one used by Jabber Multi User Chat (with perhaps a fancier MUC protocol) than IRC.
      - miloignis 5y ago
        That's not true though - you'll still be talking to everyone on every homeserver that yours can reach (or can be reached transitively)! When matrix.org went down for a bit a few years ago, I could talk in the same rooms with everyone on a homeserver that wasn't matrix.org flawlessly, even though the room was first created on matrix.org. I struggle to see how Matrix could be less available than IRC, where I've experienced many more netsplits.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  Yeah it's more about user psychology/ergonomy. A Blunt tool that expose its limit can be preferred to a potentially better one that create more unknown failures. (Not thinking about SDV)
scarygliders 5y ago
Try giving it another spin. Matrix-Synapse is under constant development and lots of bugs have been fixed each release. I've found the matrix-synapse homeserver I run to be stable. Along with Element-desktop and the Element android app it's been a great experience for me. With both of those, you don't need to worry about history or bouncers, as history gets synched even if you power down your homeserver and back up again like I do. And authentication comes as a by-product of matrix-synapse/Element. I also love url and picture previews displayed directly in Element (and other clients) by way of synapse - far nicer experience than the text-only of IRC in my opinion. I think IRC has had its day. At least with myself.
- eptcyka 5y ago
  How does one moderate a room if there are infinite home servers with infinite identities?
  - ta988 5y ago
    I agree Matrix hasn't seen the level of attacks IRC got. Once it has been through that we will see if it is really a viable alternative.
  - miloignis 5y ago
    You can block users or homeservers, or even go allowlist only, I believe.
  - pwr22 5y ago
    I think there's work on some sort of reputation based system but afaik it's not there yet.
- fps_doug 5y ago
  Disagree. As an open chat platform -- ie. not for private/confidential communications, to me, IRC is still superior to Matrix. We use it at work in parallel to IRC, and it still happens today (at least with elements.io) that a message or two can get lost when you restart your client in an unfortunate moment, and sometimes channel user lists get out of sync, so you're addressing a person that's not there, or suddenly someone replies you don't see in the user list. It's happening rarely, but it does, and it is annoying. IRC's concept of requiring an active TCP connection for your session is archaic but dead simple, and the only times you have to wonder whether or not someone received your message is if they got a ping timeout shortly after, and the user list might get out of sync once in a honeymoon when there's a net-split. Nothing about IRC changes anymore, so you won't get surprised by regressions and bug fixes every month. I can see how people miss long multi-line messages and animated gifs in IRC, but I just don't. It's straight forward text communications, no bullshit.

Fuzzeh 5y ago

LOL No! IRC is still alive and well thanks.