9 ms·

Microfarms come to South L.A. frontyards, bringing fresh produce to food deserts

72 points by clairity 5y ago

natmaka 5y ago
Similar approach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T15gXm6ha_I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T15gXm6ha_I
- mastazi 5y ago
  In my mind small scale aquaponics seems to have the advantage that it's not as labour intensive as small scale traditional farming (e.g. it seems to me that things like transplanting and weeding tend to be less labour intensive and you don't usually need to apply fertilizers because the fish do it for you). This is relevant because I believe that labour is a significant factor in making micro farming viable (more so than production per acre, where IMHO micro farming can hold its own). However the above is based only on my intuition and personal experience[1], I would like to see some studies about that, does anyone know of any? One disadvantage of aquaponics seems to be that, if you ever happen to scale up and start selling some of your produce, in some countries you can't sell it as organic - because there tends to be a requirement, across several countries, that you grow your crops in-soil for organic certification (Australia, where I live, is one of those countries, IIRC this is also the case in the EU). To me this feels a bit unfair because typically in aquaponics you won't use many chemicals if any (either for the reasons mentioned above, or because the chemicals would harm your fish), so I think it would appeal the same type of people who buy organic food. [1] I grew up on a medium-sized farm and as an adult I've got some limited experience in aquaponics, as a hobbyist.
  - natmaka 5y ago
    AFAIK aquaponics is less labour-intensive than traditional (soil-based) farming (all parameters being as equal as possible). Pest control is also less of a burden and risk factor, in my opinion especially with ebb & tide systems. It, indeed, cannot be certified as organic. However some found ways, such as selling (or even creating) to high-end restaurants. Pertinent (with labour) studies: https://ag.purdue.edu/agecon/Documents/Aquaponics%20in%20Indiana.pdf https://ag.purdue.edu/agecon/Documents/Aquaponics%20in%20Ind... https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/economics-of-aquaponics.html https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/economics-of-aquap... Personal experience: string interest since 2009, created then maintained many micro to very-small scale experimental systems.
    - mastazi 5y ago
      Thank you very much for those links!
      - natmaka 5y ago
        You are welcome! I'm quite astonished to not see more of such projects here, as there an elegant, efficient and interesting cross between aquaponics (and even hydroponics) and IT, as automation is key when it comes to lower labor costs and various risks. The whole domain (high-end food) is economically booming. Launching an experimental project isn't difficult nor expensive, and scaling up is possible. It comes as a fair mix of abstract-and-applied and also buy-or-build challenges, of work to do on a desk and also in the field... It also enables (partially) remote maintenance and expert-diagnostic. All this without any real philosophical tension (no user to lure or to spy on!). One may even avoid killing fishes, for example by raising ornamental species. Last but not least such a project is satisfying because you design, create, maintain... you see it running, instead of working on a component of a component (...) of some huge abstract org.
iammisc 5y ago
Great hobby (I really mean that... my wife and I grow, process, and preserve a significant portion of our own produce in our front lawn), but ultimately, these are only marginally less wasteful than lawns. The distribution costs (environmental and otherwise) of having many small farms easily overpowers the current situation, which allows for more efficiency. Plus, it takes quite a bit of intense effort to farm enough to support people. We'd do better with large-scale reforms like stop paying farmers to grow food that goes to waste or encouraging more meat consumption (meat is pound for pound more efficient at energy storage for humans, and allows the conversion of faster-growing native species into actual food, if we did it right).
- philips 5y ago
  Do you have any references to back up these claims?
  - iammisc 5y ago
    For my first claim (that rapid decentralization will not achieve the climate ends), this is my own analysis based on the fact that growing enough food to feed the world requires fertilizers as inputs. Currently the fertilizers are transported in trucks to farms and spread over large swaths of land by machine. The alternative is for it to be packaged up and spread by hand or with small machines. This would require more resources, for packaging, distribution, and machine production, so would seem intuitively worse for the environment. For the meat (not saying you should consume a meat based diet but rather one that's mostly plants that properly incorporates meat as necessary... i.e., a traditional diet): https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10669-015-9577-y https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10669-015-9577-y . Also, as an aside, if you don't want to turn veggie farming into mining with some extra steps, you need to raise animals that you can grind up into fertilizer. Otherwise, you have to mine petrochemicals or bat poop, which is extremely bad for the environment.
    - briefcomment 5y ago
      Interesting study. I think most people think the complete opposite. Science communication seems pretty broken.
pkaye 5y ago
Seems like it would be better to subsidize a local grocery store in these food deserts regions.
- clairity 5y ago
  there's really no vacant infill in south LA unfortunately, and despite it's bad rap, commercial rents in the area are nearly as inflated as everywhere else in LA. we really need to structurally discourage unproductive economic activity (like rents) to get better outcomes for all.
  - offtop5 5y ago
    Or people can just leave la. The idea that were all on this team together trying to find solutions is naive, you need to do what's best for yourself and your family
    - s5300 5y ago
      The idea of literally being forced out of where you were born and raised due to richer transplants isn't particularly the best thing (in a figuratively first world/developed country that is)
      - offtop5 5y ago
        For all of human history people have had to move to where they can feed their kids. The smart people are leaving, of course if you want to stay in LA and struggle your entire life you're free to
        s5300 5y ago
        While this may be somewhat true, you seem to be misunderstanding the premise of living in the US
        offtop5 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ffggvv 5y ago
They say theres an albertsons a mile away. I guarantee they have fresh veggies and they can easily walk there.
- nobltt 5y ago
  At a brisk pace, 2 miles (there and back) will take about 40 minutes...and then carrying bags of groceries on the way back too. Easy I suppose if you've not had to do that too many times yourself.
  - koyote 5y ago
    I used to live 20 minutes walk from the closest non-convenience store. I carried a medium-sized rucksack and went shopping more regularly. Obviously not quite as easy for an old age pensioner or people that might also have issues walking with a heavy bag, but the vast majority of people do not fall into that category. Nowadays I get my big shopping delivered, but still sometimes walk (to the now closer shop) with rucksack. For the further afield discount alcohol shop I often bike there, again with rucksack and/or side bags.
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    Growing up, we didn’t have a car for a time, and had to make a similar grocery trip every week by foot, in the freezing cold, about the same length. We put on layers, walked as a family (adults and kids), and everyone carried bags back. It wasn’t easy, but it wasn’t bad either. The walk kept you warm, it was time together, and it became a very tolerable and normal routine.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Very American. A 20 min walk to the store is a “problem”.
    - adrianN 5y ago
      It would be a problem for me, here in Germany, too. I wouldn't live anywhere where the next supermarket is more than ten minutes away by foot. Usually there are several in that radius. Where I currently live there are two supermarkets within a ten minute walk. I suppose I could make longer distances work if the infrastructure allowed for safe cycling to the supermarket, but I somehow doubt that this is the case in the US.
nsxwolf 5y ago
I’m lucky enough to live near several grocery stores and have a high income. I eat junk and am fat. Are we sure this will work?
- anm89 5y ago
  It's not about being sure it will work. It's about giving options for decent food to people who want it, not physically forcing it into their bodies.
  - rabbitonrails 5y ago
    $43/month for 3 pounds of veggies a week is not giving
    - anm89 5y ago
      Fixed
    - heterodoxxed 5y ago
      | subscriptions that cost $36 per month and $43 with delivery. | For that, subscribers get a 3-pound mix of greens and vegetables every week. $43 a month gets you 12 pounds a month with delivery which comes to $3.58 a pound ($3 without delivery). Depending on the vegetables that's a great price.
PostOnce 5y ago
garden -> microfarm garage -> microfactory trailer park -> tiny house village gruel -> soylent I'm not sure if there's a word for this other than "marketing", but it's an interesting phenomenon I've been noticing lately. Just re-label something old and it sells better. See also: the McDonald's celebrity meals, it's the same chicken nuggets or hamburgers they've been selling for decades, but call it the "____ Meal" and get a million new customers.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > I'm not sure if there's a word for this other than "marketing", gentrification?
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    Exactly this - it's a remarketing of normal working class concepts to upper middle class hipsters so they can pretend to be authentic and salt-of-the-earth. All of the labels the parent listed are associated with hipsters for a reason.
- jillesvangurp 5y ago
  They are similar in size but not in quality. A microfarm is a profitable (hopefully) but small business. A garage is where you park your car. A microfactory is where you build goods that you sell. Quite a few famous companies started in garages of course. Trailer parks are where trailer trash live in old and broken trailers. People with limited means may choose to live in a place that doesn't suck that just happens to be small. And so on. It's not just relabeling. It's actually doing things better/differently with modern means and technology. I follow quite a few people on youtube into things like farming, making, cooking/baking. It's a thing this century. People with good educations busying themselves in the small with reinventing humble things like farming, baking, etc. and making a living out of that. It's not just marketing. I was born in the seventies and find this fascinating. These people are choosing to do these things instead of being wage slaves in some corporate hell hole and are making it work with modern technology, hard work, and creative use of resources. I agree Soylent is weird though. I guess if you hate food and life in general, that would be acceptable as a way to survive. Otherwise, you might get a bit of joy out of eating or making some genuinely nice food. It's not that hard.
LA-resident 5y ago
This article is working on a 10 year past. Food desserts in 2021 Los Angeles are fiction. There are more than 8 grocery chains and online services that will deliver any produce, meat , packaged food that you want. Many also accept EBT cards. This is the extension of a popular fallacy, by lazy journalists.
- refurb 5y ago
  Isn’t this area of LA also gentrifying? I heard it’s way better than it was 10 years ago.
- VincentEvans 5y ago
  Any delivered food, be that take-out, or food-in-a-box subscription services, or services that shop for you, even if provided by the chain itself - are very expensive in my experience, compared to typical super-market food. When I usually hear food deserts being discussed - it is usually in the context of how it affects low income areas and population. And any services that charge extra for convenience and that on top of the price of food itself - are likely not a solution that will address the needs of the poor - “why don’t they just have it delivered?” is a bit “let them eat cake”-ish.
  - LA-resident 5y ago
    Unprepared and standard groceries are the same price online as they are in the store. Delivery fees are waved for 30$ + orders. A smart shopper and meal planner can order once a week and get nutritional and fresh food delivered to their home. A bigger problem in low income areas is people are more likely to eat fast food or higher priced prepared delivery food, because they don’t want, take time or know how to prepare the food.

72 points by clairity 5y ago

natmaka 5y ago

Similar approach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T15gXm6ha_I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T15gXm6ha_I

mastazi 5y ago
In my mind small scale aquaponics seems to have the advantage that it's not as labour intensive as small scale traditional farming (e.g. it seems to me that things like transplanting and weeding tend to be less labour intensive and you don't usually need to apply fertilizers because the fish do it for you). This is relevant because I believe that labour is a significant factor in making micro farming viable (more so than production per acre, where IMHO micro farming can hold its own). However the above is based only on my intuition and personal experience[1], I would like to see some studies about that, does anyone know of any? One disadvantage of aquaponics seems to be that, if you ever happen to scale up and start selling some of your produce, in some countries you can't sell it as organic - because there tends to be a requirement, across several countries, that you grow your crops in-soil for organic certification (Australia, where I live, is one of those countries, IIRC this is also the case in the EU). To me this feels a bit unfair because typically in aquaponics you won't use many chemicals if any (either for the reasons mentioned above, or because the chemicals would harm your fish), so I think it would appeal the same type of people who buy organic food. [1] I grew up on a medium-sized farm and as an adult I've got some limited experience in aquaponics, as a hobbyist.
- natmaka 5y ago
  AFAIK aquaponics is less labour-intensive than traditional (soil-based) farming (all parameters being as equal as possible). Pest control is also less of a burden and risk factor, in my opinion especially with ebb & tide systems. It, indeed, cannot be certified as organic. However some found ways, such as selling (or even creating) to high-end restaurants. Pertinent (with labour) studies: https://ag.purdue.edu/agecon/Documents/Aquaponics%20in%20Indiana.pdf https://ag.purdue.edu/agecon/Documents/Aquaponics%20in%20Ind... https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/economics-of-aquaponics.html https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/economics-of-aquap... Personal experience: string interest since 2009, created then maintained many micro to very-small scale experimental systems.
  - mastazi 5y ago
    Thank you very much for those links!
    - natmaka 5y ago
      You are welcome! I'm quite astonished to not see more of such projects here, as there an elegant, efficient and interesting cross between aquaponics (and even hydroponics) and IT, as automation is key when it comes to lower labor costs and various risks. The whole domain (high-end food) is economically booming. Launching an experimental project isn't difficult nor expensive, and scaling up is possible. It comes as a fair mix of abstract-and-applied and also buy-or-build challenges, of work to do on a desk and also in the field... It also enables (partially) remote maintenance and expert-diagnostic. All this without any real philosophical tension (no user to lure or to spy on!). One may even avoid killing fishes, for example by raising ornamental species. Last but not least such a project is satisfying because you design, create, maintain... you see it running, instead of working on a component of a component (...) of some huge abstract org.

iammisc 5y ago

Great hobby (I really mean that... my wife and I grow, process, and preserve a significant portion of our own produce in our front lawn), but ultimately, these are only marginally less wasteful than lawns. The distribution costs (environmental and otherwise) of having many small farms easily overpowers the current situation, which allows for more efficiency. Plus, it takes quite a bit of intense effort to farm enough to support people. We'd do better with large-scale reforms like stop paying farmers to grow food that goes to waste or encouraging more meat consumption (meat is pound for pound more efficient at energy storage for humans, and allows the conversion of faster-growing native species into actual food, if we did it right).

philips 5y ago
Do you have any references to back up these claims?
- iammisc 5y ago
  For my first claim (that rapid decentralization will not achieve the climate ends), this is my own analysis based on the fact that growing enough food to feed the world requires fertilizers as inputs. Currently the fertilizers are transported in trucks to farms and spread over large swaths of land by machine. The alternative is for it to be packaged up and spread by hand or with small machines. This would require more resources, for packaging, distribution, and machine production, so would seem intuitively worse for the environment. For the meat (not saying you should consume a meat based diet but rather one that's mostly plants that properly incorporates meat as necessary... i.e., a traditional diet): https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10669-015-9577-y https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10669-015-9577-y . Also, as an aside, if you don't want to turn veggie farming into mining with some extra steps, you need to raise animals that you can grind up into fertilizer. Otherwise, you have to mine petrochemicals or bat poop, which is extremely bad for the environment.
  - briefcomment 5y ago
    Interesting study. I think most people think the complete opposite. Science communication seems pretty broken.

pkaye 5y ago

Seems like it would be better to subsidize a local grocery store in these food deserts regions.

clairity 5y ago
there's really no vacant infill in south LA unfortunately, and despite it's bad rap, commercial rents in the area are nearly as inflated as everywhere else in LA. we really need to structurally discourage unproductive economic activity (like rents) to get better outcomes for all.
- offtop5 5y ago
  Or people can just leave la. The idea that were all on this team together trying to find solutions is naive, you need to do what's best for yourself and your family
  - s5300 5y ago
    The idea of literally being forced out of where you were born and raised due to richer transplants isn't particularly the best thing (in a figuratively first world/developed country that is)
    - offtop5 5y ago
      For all of human history people have had to move to where they can feed their kids. The smart people are leaving, of course if you want to stay in LA and struggle your entire life you're free to
      - s5300 5y ago
        While this may be somewhat true, you seem to be misunderstanding the premise of living in the US
        offtop5 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ffggvv 5y ago

They say theres an albertsons a mile away. I guarantee they have fresh veggies and they can easily walk there.

nobltt 5y ago
At a brisk pace, 2 miles (there and back) will take about 40 minutes...and then carrying bags of groceries on the way back too. Easy I suppose if you've not had to do that too many times yourself.
- koyote 5y ago
  I used to live 20 minutes walk from the closest non-convenience store. I carried a medium-sized rucksack and went shopping more regularly. Obviously not quite as easy for an old age pensioner or people that might also have issues walking with a heavy bag, but the vast majority of people do not fall into that category. Nowadays I get my big shopping delivered, but still sometimes walk (to the now closer shop) with rucksack. For the further afield discount alcohol shop I often bike there, again with rucksack and/or side bags.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  Growing up, we didn’t have a car for a time, and had to make a similar grocery trip every week by foot, in the freezing cold, about the same length. We put on layers, walked as a family (adults and kids), and everyone carried bags back. It wasn’t easy, but it wasn’t bad either. The walk kept you warm, it was time together, and it became a very tolerable and normal routine.
- refurb 5y ago
  Very American. A 20 min walk to the store is a “problem”.
  - adrianN 5y ago
    It would be a problem for me, here in Germany, too. I wouldn't live anywhere where the next supermarket is more than ten minutes away by foot. Usually there are several in that radius. Where I currently live there are two supermarkets within a ten minute walk. I suppose I could make longer distances work if the infrastructure allowed for safe cycling to the supermarket, but I somehow doubt that this is the case in the US.

nsxwolf 5y ago

I’m lucky enough to live near several grocery stores and have a high income. I eat junk and am fat. Are we sure this will work?

anm89 5y ago
It's not about being sure it will work. It's about giving options for decent food to people who want it, not physically forcing it into their bodies.
- rabbitonrails 5y ago
  $43/month for 3 pounds of veggies a week is not giving
  - anm89 5y ago
    Fixed
  - heterodoxxed 5y ago
    | subscriptions that cost $36 per month and $43 with delivery. | For that, subscribers get a 3-pound mix of greens and vegetables every week. $43 a month gets you 12 pounds a month with delivery which comes to $3.58 a pound ($3 without delivery). Depending on the vegetables that's a great price.

PostOnce 5y ago

garden -> microfarm garage -> microfactory trailer park -> tiny house village gruel -> soylent I'm not sure if there's a word for this other than "marketing", but it's an interesting phenomenon I've been noticing lately. Just re-label something old and it sells better. See also: the McDonald's celebrity meals, it's the same chicken nuggets or hamburgers they've been selling for decades, but call it the "____ Meal" and get a million new customers.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> I'm not sure if there's a word for this other than "marketing", gentrification?
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  Exactly this - it's a remarketing of normal working class concepts to upper middle class hipsters so they can pretend to be authentic and salt-of-the-earth. All of the labels the parent listed are associated with hipsters for a reason.
jillesvangurp 5y ago
They are similar in size but not in quality. A microfarm is a profitable (hopefully) but small business. A garage is where you park your car. A microfactory is where you build goods that you sell. Quite a few famous companies started in garages of course. Trailer parks are where trailer trash live in old and broken trailers. People with limited means may choose to live in a place that doesn't suck that just happens to be small. And so on. It's not just relabeling. It's actually doing things better/differently with modern means and technology. I follow quite a few people on youtube into things like farming, making, cooking/baking. It's a thing this century. People with good educations busying themselves in the small with reinventing humble things like farming, baking, etc. and making a living out of that. It's not just marketing. I was born in the seventies and find this fascinating. These people are choosing to do these things instead of being wage slaves in some corporate hell hole and are making it work with modern technology, hard work, and creative use of resources. I agree Soylent is weird though. I guess if you hate food and life in general, that would be acceptable as a way to survive. Otherwise, you might get a bit of joy out of eating or making some genuinely nice food. It's not that hard.

LA-resident 5y ago

This article is working on a 10 year past. Food desserts in 2021 Los Angeles are fiction. There are more than 8 grocery chains and online services that will deliver any produce, meat , packaged food that you want. Many also accept EBT cards. This is the extension of a popular fallacy, by lazy journalists.

refurb 5y ago
Isn’t this area of LA also gentrifying? I heard it’s way better than it was 10 years ago.
VincentEvans 5y ago
Any delivered food, be that take-out, or food-in-a-box subscription services, or services that shop for you, even if provided by the chain itself - are very expensive in my experience, compared to typical super-market food. When I usually hear food deserts being discussed - it is usually in the context of how it affects low income areas and population. And any services that charge extra for convenience and that on top of the price of food itself - are likely not a solution that will address the needs of the poor - “why don’t they just have it delivered?” is a bit “let them eat cake”-ish.
- LA-resident 5y ago
  Unprepared and standard groceries are the same price online as they are in the store. Delivery fees are waved for 30$ + orders. A smart shopper and meal planner can order once a week and get nutritional and fresh food delivered to their home. A bigger problem in low income areas is people are more likely to eat fast food or higher priced prepared delivery food, because they don’t want, take time or know how to prepare the food.