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All of those features remain intact, even with the eventual creation of a payment layer. There is nothing to prevent someone from transacting directly on the bl

by nprz 5y ago

All of those features remain intact, even with the eventual creation of a payment layer. There is nothing to prevent someone from transacting directly on the blockchain.

UncleMeat 5y ago
Except the high fees due to limited throughput and the absolutely gargantuan CO2 emissions, which are the topic of this thread. You can't say it is a settlement layer in one breath and then immediately turn around and say that no really everybody truly has access.
- nprz 5y ago
  Yes, that’s how the btc network works, that’s what censorship-resistant means. You would primarily transact on a payment layer, which true, may not have all the features of the base layer. But you also have the ability to opt-in and transact directly on the blockchain and get all those nice features listed above, however the transaction fee would be higher and the speed of the transaction slower.
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    For some definition of "higher" and "slower", yes. The scale of BTC is such that if we distributed transactions evenly across the 7b people on the planet, you get one transaction per five years. The current mining payout is 6.5BTC per block, or roughly $350,000. We are fitting around 1,500 transactions in a block, meaning each transaction costs $300. The price will only rise as more miners join and there is more demand for space in a block. The international poverty line is such that a single transaction would cost somebody at that line half their year's wages. All that good stuff won't be available to the masses. Just the rich and powerful. Hooray.
    - FabHK 5y ago
      > you get one transaction per five years Isn't it per 89 years? So basically every person gets one transaction in their lifetime. (If we are generous and allow for 5 transactions per second, then everyone can make 2 transactions in their lifetime. Yay!) That is rather remarkable. (1500 transactions/block * 6 block/h * 24 h/d * 365 d/y / 7e9 person = 1/89 transactions per person per year)
      - UncleMeat 5y ago
        I grabbed some page that claimed 7 transactions per second and also did the math wrong. Not sure how that happened. This is the big reason why I don't buy the lightning network. It won't be possible for people to have a wallet that connects to some lightning hub, since opening and closing a connection requires an on-chain transaction. So it will be impossible for anybody other than the richest few to even possess a useful wallet. Everybody else will have bits in a database they don't control.

by nprz 5y ago

All of those features remain intact, even with the eventual creation of a payment layer. There is nothing to prevent someone from transacting directly on the blockchain.

UncleMeat 5y ago

Except the high fees due to limited throughput and the absolutely gargantuan CO2 emissions, which are the topic of this thread. You can't say it is a settlement layer in one breath and then immediately turn around and say that no really everybody truly has access.

nprz 5y ago
Yes, that’s how the btc network works, that’s what censorship-resistant means. You would primarily transact on a payment layer, which true, may not have all the features of the base layer. But you also have the ability to opt-in and transact directly on the blockchain and get all those nice features listed above, however the transaction fee would be higher and the speed of the transaction slower.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  For some definition of "higher" and "slower", yes. The scale of BTC is such that if we distributed transactions evenly across the 7b people on the planet, you get one transaction per five years. The current mining payout is 6.5BTC per block, or roughly $350,000. We are fitting around 1,500 transactions in a block, meaning each transaction costs $300. The price will only rise as more miners join and there is more demand for space in a block. The international poverty line is such that a single transaction would cost somebody at that line half their year's wages. All that good stuff won't be available to the masses. Just the rich and powerful. Hooray.
  - FabHK 5y ago
    > you get one transaction per five years Isn't it per 89 years? So basically every person gets one transaction in their lifetime. (If we are generous and allow for 5 transactions per second, then everyone can make 2 transactions in their lifetime. Yay!) That is rather remarkable. (1500 transactions/block * 6 block/h * 24 h/d * 365 d/y / 7e9 person = 1/89 transactions per person per year)
    - UncleMeat 5y ago
      I grabbed some page that claimed 7 transactions per second and also did the math wrong. Not sure how that happened. This is the big reason why I don't buy the lightning network. It won't be possible for people to have a wallet that connects to some lightning hub, since opening and closing a connection requires an on-chain transaction. So it will be impossible for anybody other than the richest few to even possess a useful wallet. Everybody else will have bits in a database they don't control.