6 ms·

If the 3.9 or 4.0 was used to beat out another applicant to medical school with a 3.6 who was actually learning skills that would help them as a doctor, then ye

by mlac 5y ago

If the 3.9 or 4.0 was used to beat out another applicant to medical school with a 3.6 who was actually learning skills that would help them as a doctor, then yes, we should care. And that's why I mentioned a relevant class and not underwater basket weaving in the example. I'd also argue the specific outcome we should aim for is people who know what they are doing, and whose credentials accurately reflect their knowledge (not their ability to game the system or cheat).

908B64B197 5y ago
> who was actually learning skills that would help them as a doctor, then yes, we should care. And that's why I mentioned a relevant class and not underwater basket weaving in the example. From my experience, there's nothing of value out of the mandatory pre-med school undergrad. Universities don't even care (these students are bringing in tuition money).
- mlac 5y ago
  If there’s truly nothing of value for four years of school, then I’d argue that university isn’t really worth attending… And the required courses of bio, chem, o chem, and physics give all doctors a basic understanding of the scientific method, how biology works (that’s important), and a basic knowledge of skills required for pharmacology. Everything else is optional for Med school, but I can’t see how, everything else equal, someone who cheats their way through these would be more prepared for medical school than someone who actually learned the concepts.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > If there’s truly nothing of value for four years of school, then I’d argue that university isn’t really worth attending The value is being able to fulfill a requirement. > And the required courses of bio, chem, o chem, and physics give all doctors a basic understanding of the scientific method, how biology works (that’s important), and a basic knowledge of skills required for pharmacology. That's one year worth of coursework out of the mandatory 4 years of undergrad. > Everything else is optional for Med school, but I can’t see how, everything else equal, someone who cheats their way through these would be more prepared for medical school than someone who actually learned the concepts. They would have more time to prepare for the MCAT or pad their resume with extra-curricular, making them more competitive. Or have a part time job to pay for the expensive in-person interviews.
swiley 5y ago
Ironically this kind of attitude tends to encourage cheating.
- mlac 5y ago
  I’m not sure why that attitude would encourage cheating… could you say more? There’s even another piece to it, and that’s the moral and ethical side of it. When one takes a class or attends university, they agree to that class’ or university’s ethics code and rules. They agree to play in that sandbox by signing up and paying tuition. Cheating is saying that the rules don’t apply to them / putting their own value system ahead of the organization’s for some reason (it’s easier, they are lazy, they think the rules are stupid, doesn’t really matter). What matters is that they agreed to do one thing and we’re disingenuous. When people become doctors, lawyers, (licensed) investment professionals, or engineers, there are rules that apply in all of those fields. I don’t want to work with someone who agrees to work in those fields but just flaunts the rules when they feel there is a personal benefit in doing so, even at the detriment of others. And one can argue “well I’d follow those rules”, but really? Would they? When push came to shove before and they didn’t see personal benefit, they clearly didn’t follow the rules that they previously agreed to.
  - swiley 5y ago
    I'm absolutely not saying it's right, but there's a point you can reach by setting expectations like this that filters out all of the honest students. I remember reading some statistic on cheating in med school and it's absolutely insane.
    - 908B64B197 5y ago
      Parents with doctor friends are now getting disability diagnostics for their children so they can get extra time during exams.
geebee 5y ago
That's the thing, I'm not sure the 3.9 has failed to learn those skills. The student with the 3.6 and the 3.9 would both make good doctors, and once they get into med school, the attrition rate (at an elite program) is typically below 1%. But med school is designed, in part, to ensure that many of the people who would make good doctors are not allowed to do so. I'm not saying that is the only function of the AMA's control over credentialing, it is also there to train doctors and ensure quality. But the AMA clearly engages in cartel-like behavior This is done to limit new entrants, artificially reduce competition, and pump up salaries for the cartel members. The student who cheated a 3.6 up to a 3.9 probably knows the material very, very well. I don't excuse the cheating, but I do insist that we recognize the broken system that rewards it, and specifically recognize the widespread harm that happens when organizations like the AMA engage in cartel like behavior.

by mlac 5y ago

908B64B197 5y ago

> who was actually learning skills that would help them as a doctor, then yes, we should care. And that's why I mentioned a relevant class and not underwater basket weaving in the example. From my experience, there's nothing of value out of the mandatory pre-med school undergrad. Universities don't even care (these students are bringing in tuition money).

mlac 5y ago
If there’s truly nothing of value for four years of school, then I’d argue that university isn’t really worth attending… And the required courses of bio, chem, o chem, and physics give all doctors a basic understanding of the scientific method, how biology works (that’s important), and a basic knowledge of skills required for pharmacology. Everything else is optional for Med school, but I can’t see how, everything else equal, someone who cheats their way through these would be more prepared for medical school than someone who actually learned the concepts.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > If there’s truly nothing of value for four years of school, then I’d argue that university isn’t really worth attending The value is being able to fulfill a requirement. > And the required courses of bio, chem, o chem, and physics give all doctors a basic understanding of the scientific method, how biology works (that’s important), and a basic knowledge of skills required for pharmacology. That's one year worth of coursework out of the mandatory 4 years of undergrad. > Everything else is optional for Med school, but I can’t see how, everything else equal, someone who cheats their way through these would be more prepared for medical school than someone who actually learned the concepts. They would have more time to prepare for the MCAT or pad their resume with extra-curricular, making them more competitive. Or have a part time job to pay for the expensive in-person interviews.

swiley 5y ago

Ironically this kind of attitude tends to encourage cheating.

mlac 5y ago
I’m not sure why that attitude would encourage cheating… could you say more? There’s even another piece to it, and that’s the moral and ethical side of it. When one takes a class or attends university, they agree to that class’ or university’s ethics code and rules. They agree to play in that sandbox by signing up and paying tuition. Cheating is saying that the rules don’t apply to them / putting their own value system ahead of the organization’s for some reason (it’s easier, they are lazy, they think the rules are stupid, doesn’t really matter). What matters is that they agreed to do one thing and we’re disingenuous. When people become doctors, lawyers, (licensed) investment professionals, or engineers, there are rules that apply in all of those fields. I don’t want to work with someone who agrees to work in those fields but just flaunts the rules when they feel there is a personal benefit in doing so, even at the detriment of others. And one can argue “well I’d follow those rules”, but really? Would they? When push came to shove before and they didn’t see personal benefit, they clearly didn’t follow the rules that they previously agreed to.
- swiley 5y ago
  I'm absolutely not saying it's right, but there's a point you can reach by setting expectations like this that filters out all of the honest students. I remember reading some statistic on cheating in med school and it's absolutely insane.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    Parents with doctor friends are now getting disability diagnostics for their children so they can get extra time during exams.

geebee 5y ago

That's the thing, I'm not sure the 3.9 has failed to learn those skills. The student with the 3.6 and the 3.9 would both make good doctors, and once they get into med school, the attrition rate (at an elite program) is typically below 1%. But med school is designed, in part, to ensure that many of the people who would make good doctors are not allowed to do so. I'm not saying that is the only function of the AMA's control over credentialing, it is also there to train doctors and ensure quality. But the AMA clearly engages in cartel-like behavior This is done to limit new entrants, artificially reduce competition, and pump up salaries for the cartel members. The student who cheated a 3.6 up to a 3.9 probably knows the material very, very well. I don't excuse the cheating, but I do insist that we recognize the broken system that rewards it, and specifically recognize the widespread harm that happens when organizations like the AMA engage in cartel like behavior.