5 ms·

>but no one is seriously proposing to hook up empty spaces to HSR. The California HSR plan begs to differ. >Since HSR works in France to connect those cities,

>but no one is seriously proposing to hook up empty spaces to HSR. The California HSR plan begs to differ. >Since HSR works in France to connect those cities, it should generally work equally well in the US to connect those cities. Only if people routinely travel to those cities rather than further away cities.

khuey 5y ago
The proposed San Francisco/Los Angeles HSR line is fairly comparable to the Madrid/Barcelona HSR line.
jcranmer 5y ago
I'll point out that Fresno, CA has roughly the same population as Nantes and Nice, France, both of which have dedicated TGV lines specifically to reach those cities. Do you still think that qualifies as "empty spaces"?
- vinay427 5y ago
  Fresno (1700/sq. km) also has less than half the population density of Nantes or Nice (4200-4800/sq. km). It's not exactly a fair comparison if the area of the city is far larger unless the last-kilometer transit seamlessly scales to last-2km transit. You can actually walk to a reasonable number of places, or take a bus 1-2 km to many more, from a main station in Nantes, Nice, or any number of similarly-sized cities in many countries.
- rjsw 5y ago
  Don't think either Nantes or Nice have dedicated TGV lines.
  - khuey 5y ago
    A better example in France would be Bordeaux.
    - bibinou 5y ago
      Not really, the high-speed line was supposed to connect to Spain and Toulouse and the beaches of courses (it's not named LGV SEA for nothing). Fresno is a county seat and there's Cal State. That's it. Same in France, every local baron wanted his dedicated HS line, so now we got plenty but only one is profitable.
      - khuey 5y ago
        Yes, and the line to Fresno is going to keep going to Los Angeles if they finish building it.
sjsamson 5y ago
CAHSR’s mainline is intended to be SF-LA via the Central Valley, and connect the major cities along the way. Some of those valley have around a 1m+ people or will grow to that over time, making them viable to connect. Think “pearls on a string.” >Only if people routinely travel to those cities rather than further away cities. They do. People naturally travel more to places closer to them than further away. There is a strong correlation here. When you’re hungry and want to go out, do you go to a food place 5-10 minutes away? Or a place hours away? Or 3 Michelin starred place on the other side of the planet. The regions targeted for HSR often have significant auto traffic on the highways connecting them, and short haul flights between their airports. HSR hits a sweet spot for trips that are long drives and short flights. Cost and time competitive, while also being more comfortable.
- SllX 5y ago
  > Cost and time competitive, while also being more comfortable. This is only true in a vacuum without our political and legal environment. If you could make the project immune to CEQA, eminent domain challenges, and union pressure, then you have a much more viable railway. If you could at least brush off two of those three and one of them was the union pressure, then it might actually get built in the manner it was intended to be linking San Francisco, Sacramento, Los Angeles and San Diego. At this point we’ll be lucky to get a line that doesn’t share tracks with freight between SF and LA.
  - lmm 5y ago
    How is it that freeway construction can be assumed to somehow be immune to all these problems?
    - hermitdev 5y ago
      I won't say freeways are immune to all these problems , but built freeways don't close for union strikes.
    - SllX 5y ago
      They’re not but they’re already built and therefore are already an ongoing concern. CEQA and a lot of the more asinine pro-labor and tax policies that exist today throughout the State postdate the established right of ways for most of the highways.

khuey 5y ago

The proposed San Francisco/Los Angeles HSR line is fairly comparable to the Madrid/Barcelona HSR line.

jcranmer 5y ago

I'll point out that Fresno, CA has roughly the same population as Nantes and Nice, France, both of which have dedicated TGV lines specifically to reach those cities. Do you still think that qualifies as "empty spaces"?

vinay427 5y ago
Fresno (1700/sq. km) also has less than half the population density of Nantes or Nice (4200-4800/sq. km). It's not exactly a fair comparison if the area of the city is far larger unless the last-kilometer transit seamlessly scales to last-2km transit. You can actually walk to a reasonable number of places, or take a bus 1-2 km to many more, from a main station in Nantes, Nice, or any number of similarly-sized cities in many countries.
rjsw 5y ago
Don't think either Nantes or Nice have dedicated TGV lines.
- khuey 5y ago
  A better example in France would be Bordeaux.
  - bibinou 5y ago
    Not really, the high-speed line was supposed to connect to Spain and Toulouse and the beaches of courses (it's not named LGV SEA for nothing). Fresno is a county seat and there's Cal State. That's it. Same in France, every local baron wanted his dedicated HS line, so now we got plenty but only one is profitable.
    - khuey 5y ago
      Yes, and the line to Fresno is going to keep going to Los Angeles if they finish building it.

sjsamson 5y ago

CAHSR’s mainline is intended to be SF-LA via the Central Valley, and connect the major cities along the way. Some of those valley have around a 1m+ people or will grow to that over time, making them viable to connect. Think “pearls on a string.” >Only if people routinely travel to those cities rather than further away cities. They do. People naturally travel more to places closer to them than further away. There is a strong correlation here. When you’re hungry and want to go out, do you go to a food place 5-10 minutes away? Or a place hours away? Or 3 Michelin starred place on the other side of the planet. The regions targeted for HSR often have significant auto traffic on the highways connecting them, and short haul flights between their airports. HSR hits a sweet spot for trips that are long drives and short flights. Cost and time competitive, while also being more comfortable.

SllX 5y ago
> Cost and time competitive, while also being more comfortable. This is only true in a vacuum without our political and legal environment. If you could make the project immune to CEQA, eminent domain challenges, and union pressure, then you have a much more viable railway. If you could at least brush off two of those three and one of them was the union pressure, then it might actually get built in the manner it was intended to be linking San Francisco, Sacramento, Los Angeles and San Diego. At this point we’ll be lucky to get a line that doesn’t share tracks with freight between SF and LA.
- lmm 5y ago
  How is it that freeway construction can be assumed to somehow be immune to all these problems?
  - hermitdev 5y ago
    I won't say freeways are immune to all these problems , but built freeways don't close for union strikes.
  - SllX 5y ago
    They’re not but they’re already built and therefore are already an ongoing concern. CEQA and a lot of the more asinine pro-labor and tax policies that exist today throughout the State postdate the established right of ways for most of the highways.