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I definitely hear you but at this point its kind of why I come to HN and why I tell my software students to do the same. I think you're right that if a lot of t

I definitely hear you but at this point its kind of why I come to HN and why I tell my software students to do the same. I think you're right that if a lot of these folks had their way the only way to do anything on a computer would be through a terminal interface, but when its not taking the form of an inactionable rant that just feels like such a beautiful kind of idealism to me and a valid / real perspective shared by a lot of engineers. I too cant help myself from occasionally dreaming of some alternate reality where GUIs were never invented and all the problems of addictive online media were somehow magically sidestepped. In any case even though I could have done without the repeated revenue stats being thrown around I think its great this guy made the extra effort to consolidate his observations and conclusions as an open resource. What more can we all do as members of this community? That said after reading the article and a lot of the comments I did find myself wondering, if we stopped treating our users like 12 year olds would they stop interacting with our sites like 12 year olds? And is that even something we'd want?

jt2190 5y ago
> ... if we stopped treating our users like 12 year olds... This is not what the OP is suggesting. He's paraphrasing a well-established usability guideline [1] to use text that has a readability score of 5th grade or lower, because people are in a hurry and they don't read text on the web, they scan it. Using more complex sentence structures in this context only leads to misreadings and misunderstandings. [1] https://www.nngroup.com/articles/how-users-read-on-the-web/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/how-users-read-on-the-web/
- chefchaouen 5y ago
  A dev in my department is doing a POC to demonstrate the relationship between the quantifiable readability (albeit in Japanese) of a company’s securities filings and that company’s financial performance. That project, and the nngroup link you kindly shared make me think readability is a legitimately important consideration when designing a landing page as the OP is suggesting.
  - lifeisstillgood 5y ago
    What's the (proposed) causal relationship there? Companies with clear business models can write clear notes to the Stock Exchnage, or companies that write clearly to the exchnage can communicate to the market (users investors) also clearly (I am assuming that no-one thinks that Japanese consumers read security filings before making their weekly shop?)
solipsism 5y ago
like such a beautiful kind of idealism to me dreaming of some alternate reality where GUIs were never invented This is the ideal dream state you send your students to absorb? A bunch of terminal-users obsessed with building everything in the terminal? Why indoctrinate your students into that? Note: Reading over the above I realize it sounds antagonistic, probably because I formed everything as a question. I don't mean it to be antagonistic. It's just me not understanding where you're coming from. if we stopped treating our users like 12 year olds would they stop interacting with our sites like 12 year olds Yeah, maybe. But... I'm not sure if you want my dad to be part of your idealized future, but if you do, the terminal is not going to be the way to do it I'm all for finding ways to empower users, but how does that lead to you getting off the train at no GUIs, instead of better GUIs?
JohnWhigham 5y ago
Treating the masses like children is a habit that predates the Internet. But it's not always bad. Pruning a landing page's CTA to be as succinct as possible is necessary because time is the universal currency, and we only have so much of it to spend.
tyrust 5y ago
> I too cant help myself from occasionally dreaming of some alternate reality where GUIs were never invented and all the problems of addictive online media were somehow magically sidestepped. MUDs were before my time, but I have a friend that claims to have spent hundreds of hours playing these text-based games. Addiction is a human issue and isn't limited to one form or another.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > MUDs were before my time, but I have a friend that claims to have spent hundreds of hours playing these text-based games. > Addiction is a human issue and isn't limited to one form or another. For me it was newsgroups. (Sure, I read them in a Windows-based Usenet reader, but it was the contents that were addictive, and that was all text.)

jt2190 5y ago

> ... if we stopped treating our users like 12 year olds... This is not what the OP is suggesting. He's paraphrasing a well-established usability guideline [1] to use text that has a readability score of 5th grade or lower, because people are in a hurry and they don't read text on the web, they scan it. Using more complex sentence structures in this context only leads to misreadings and misunderstandings. [1] https://www.nngroup.com/articles/how-users-read-on-the-web/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/how-users-read-on-the-web/

chefchaouen 5y ago
A dev in my department is doing a POC to demonstrate the relationship between the quantifiable readability (albeit in Japanese) of a company’s securities filings and that company’s financial performance. That project, and the nngroup link you kindly shared make me think readability is a legitimately important consideration when designing a landing page as the OP is suggesting.
- lifeisstillgood 5y ago
  What's the (proposed) causal relationship there? Companies with clear business models can write clear notes to the Stock Exchnage, or companies that write clearly to the exchnage can communicate to the market (users investors) also clearly (I am assuming that no-one thinks that Japanese consumers read security filings before making their weekly shop?)

solipsism 5y ago

like such a beautiful kind of idealism to me dreaming of some alternate reality where GUIs were never invented This is the ideal dream state you send your students to absorb? A bunch of terminal-users obsessed with building everything in the terminal? Why indoctrinate your students into that? Note: Reading over the above I realize it sounds antagonistic, probably because I formed everything as a question. I don't mean it to be antagonistic. It's just me not understanding where you're coming from. if we stopped treating our users like 12 year olds would they stop interacting with our sites like 12 year olds Yeah, maybe. But... I'm not sure if you want my dad to be part of your idealized future, but if you do, the terminal is not going to be the way to do it I'm all for finding ways to empower users, but how does that lead to you getting off the train at no GUIs, instead of better GUIs?

JohnWhigham 5y ago

Treating the masses like children is a habit that predates the Internet. But it's not always bad. Pruning a landing page's CTA to be as succinct as possible is necessary because time is the universal currency, and we only have so much of it to spend.

tyrust 5y ago

> I too cant help myself from occasionally dreaming of some alternate reality where GUIs were never invented and all the problems of addictive online media were somehow magically sidestepped. MUDs were before my time, but I have a friend that claims to have spent hundreds of hours playing these text-based games. Addiction is a human issue and isn't limited to one form or another.

CRConrad 5y ago
> MUDs were before my time, but I have a friend that claims to have spent hundreds of hours playing these text-based games. > Addiction is a human issue and isn't limited to one form or another. For me it was newsgroups. (Sure, I read them in a Windows-based Usenet reader, but it was the contents that were addictive, and that was all text.)