5 ms·

Whatever he's doing seems to be pretty easy, any word on how he's defeating the safety checks?

jaywalk 5y ago
The picture in the article shows him touching the steering wheel with his shoeless foot, so I'm guessing that's the key.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  My car can tell when someone is sitting in the seat and ding an alarm when they’re not buckled in or turn on the appropriate passenger airbag(s). Surely a Tesla has this same capability?
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    Putting a sufficiently heavy object on the seat will take care of that.
ghaff 5y ago
Apparently foot on the steering wheel from the photo.
jsight 5y ago
There is very little that can be done to stop someone who is intentionally trying to violate safety checks. Sadly, the folks who try to ultimately make things worse for all of us.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- SigmundA 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_in_depth_(non-military) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_in_depth_(non-military... If its just a steering wheel check then all he needs to do is put his foot on the wheel, which looks like what he did. If it had a weight sensor in seat then he would also need a heavy enough weight. If there is also an attention tracking camera then that has to be fooled as well. No system is perfect it also doesn't mean more couldn't be done, the more friction you add the less people will do it, especially just casual offenders who just jump in the back seat and use a foot to try it out. How much should be done is an open debate, I am just trying to find out what a Tesla currently does.
  - detaro 5y ago
    report on some tests about this: https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/cr-engineers-show-tesla-will-drive-with-no-one-in-drivers-seat/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/cr-engine...
  - jsight 5y ago
    The problem is that this overthinks the problem. There are basically three classes of people in play here: - The jokesters that manipulate the vehicle with a foot or something. There are very few of these in general, as there really isn't a benefit to the operator. - The sleepers - These seem to be happening too often with Teslas. It seems like face/head tracking could fix it. - The movie watchers - These can trivially defeat both the eye tracking style approaches and the possibly a camera based approach as well. - The unfocused, tired, or otherwise slightly distracted. This is by far the biggest group. To maximize safety, these things need to focus on shaping behavior, not on stopping determined and willfully dangerous adversaries.
- kordlessagain 5y ago
  I doubt any of this is true.
swiley 5y ago
Last time I checked it's not hard to get a root shell on a Tesla.
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  Details?
gnarbarian 5y ago
what is stopping you from turning off the road and intentionally hitting pedestrians?
- SigmundA 5y ago
  Not the question...
  - marrs 5y ago
    Actually it is. Risk management has to be proportionate to the risk.
    - SigmundA 5y ago
      I asked what driver checks the Tesla has and you are making what point? It seems based on other actual answers to my question there is only a steering wheel check. Are you proposing there should be no checks and it's purely the drivers responsibility therefore my question should not be answered directly instead this should be a debate about risk management? Please clarify how the GP answered my question and what I missed.
      - gnarbarian 5y ago
        You have no authority to limit the scope of this discussion. Willfully determined actions such as tricking the system and getting in the back seat is reckless driving and is the drivers fault and responsibility. Just like intentionally putting a rock on the gas pedal and jumping into the back seat. Or intentionally driving over pedestrians. It's the person wielding the tool not the tool's fault.
        SigmundA 5y ago
        I am the one who asked the question and your response did not answer it. I am still not sure what your point is, are you saying Tesla should have no steering wheel check either? Can I get a clear response instead of argumentative rambling?
hermitdev 5y ago
I'm surprised they don't have a safety check to assure that someone is actually in the driver's seat. I mean my non-Tesla vehicle from 2013 has sensors that alert if I'm in the driver's seat without a seatbelt. Likewise it has sensors that alert if there are any passengers without a seatbelt. How hard would it be to have such a simple sensor and bring the car to an immediate halt if the driver is removed from the seat?
- ajross 5y ago
  Replied elsewhere, but repeating here: It's not a security feature! A driver nag (not unique to Tesla at all) is a reminder to a presumptively-good-faith driver who may have lost attention or fallen asleep, etc... Cars are dangerous and almost by definition can be used maliciously to terrifying effect, and we just accept that. You don't expect your Civic to protect the world against you running them over, why demand it from another manufacturer?
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    Actually I would like it if my car stopped me from hitting someone that would be a good feature.
    - ajross 5y ago
      Let me know when cars stop you from deliberately hitting someone. I'd buy that too. Again, the argument above was not that the car should provide assistive technology (collision avoidance is a totally a thing), but that they should prevent a malicious driver from doing anything harmful.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - Crosseye_Jack 5y ago
      Then maybe consider a Volvo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLW4ATtPPKw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLW4ATtPPKw (But I'm sure its is being rolled out by other manufacturers) EDIT: But then again, its a Volvo :-P (It's not like they are considered a "hip" manufacturer)
bitexploder 5y ago
I used rubber bands and a water bottle. The general motion of the autopilot moves the bottle enough to trick it. Of course my hands were a millimeter from the wheel the whole time and it was just for my own amusement... my wife refuses to even try Autopilot. I only used it to see how it works. Some people love it, but I don't trust it, or at least myself with it. Tesla adaptive cruise is very good and does enough to reduce driving fatigue for me. AutoPilot has made far to many sketchy decisions in the short time I used it for me to trust it, Tesla statistics about its safety or not.

The picture in the article shows him touching the steering wheel with his shoeless foot, so I'm guessing that's the key.

elliekelly 5y ago
My car can tell when someone is sitting in the seat and ding an alarm when they’re not buckled in or turn on the appropriate passenger airbag(s). Surely a Tesla has this same capability?
- jaywalk 5y ago
  Putting a sufficiently heavy object on the seat will take care of that.

ghaff 5y ago

Apparently foot on the steering wheel from the photo.

jsight 5y ago

There is very little that can be done to stop someone who is intentionally trying to violate safety checks. Sadly, the folks who try to ultimately make things worse for all of us.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
SigmundA 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_in_depth_(non-military) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_in_depth_(non-military... If its just a steering wheel check then all he needs to do is put his foot on the wheel, which looks like what he did. If it had a weight sensor in seat then he would also need a heavy enough weight. If there is also an attention tracking camera then that has to be fooled as well. No system is perfect it also doesn't mean more couldn't be done, the more friction you add the less people will do it, especially just casual offenders who just jump in the back seat and use a foot to try it out. How much should be done is an open debate, I am just trying to find out what a Tesla currently does.
- detaro 5y ago
  report on some tests about this: https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/cr-engineers-show-tesla-will-drive-with-no-one-in-drivers-seat/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/cr-engine...
- jsight 5y ago
  The problem is that this overthinks the problem. There are basically three classes of people in play here: - The jokesters that manipulate the vehicle with a foot or something. There are very few of these in general, as there really isn't a benefit to the operator. - The sleepers - These seem to be happening too often with Teslas. It seems like face/head tracking could fix it. - The movie watchers - These can trivially defeat both the eye tracking style approaches and the possibly a camera based approach as well. - The unfocused, tired, or otherwise slightly distracted. This is by far the biggest group. To maximize safety, these things need to focus on shaping behavior, not on stopping determined and willfully dangerous adversaries.
kordlessagain 5y ago
I doubt any of this is true.

swiley 5y ago

Last time I checked it's not hard to get a root shell on a Tesla.

kwhitefoot 5y ago
Details?

gnarbarian 5y ago

what is stopping you from turning off the road and intentionally hitting pedestrians?

SigmundA 5y ago
Not the question...
- marrs 5y ago
  Actually it is. Risk management has to be proportionate to the risk.
  - SigmundA 5y ago
    I asked what driver checks the Tesla has and you are making what point? It seems based on other actual answers to my question there is only a steering wheel check. Are you proposing there should be no checks and it's purely the drivers responsibility therefore my question should not be answered directly instead this should be a debate about risk management? Please clarify how the GP answered my question and what I missed.
    - gnarbarian 5y ago
      You have no authority to limit the scope of this discussion. Willfully determined actions such as tricking the system and getting in the back seat is reckless driving and is the drivers fault and responsibility. Just like intentionally putting a rock on the gas pedal and jumping into the back seat. Or intentionally driving over pedestrians. It's the person wielding the tool not the tool's fault.
      - SigmundA 5y ago
        I am the one who asked the question and your response did not answer it. I am still not sure what your point is, are you saying Tesla should have no steering wheel check either? Can I get a clear response instead of argumentative rambling?

hermitdev 5y ago

I'm surprised they don't have a safety check to assure that someone is actually in the driver's seat. I mean my non-Tesla vehicle from 2013 has sensors that alert if I'm in the driver's seat without a seatbelt. Likewise it has sensors that alert if there are any passengers without a seatbelt. How hard would it be to have such a simple sensor and bring the car to an immediate halt if the driver is removed from the seat?

ajross 5y ago
Replied elsewhere, but repeating here: It's not a security feature! A driver nag (not unique to Tesla at all) is a reminder to a presumptively-good-faith driver who may have lost attention or fallen asleep, etc... Cars are dangerous and almost by definition can be used maliciously to terrifying effect, and we just accept that. You don't expect your Civic to protect the world against you running them over, why demand it from another manufacturer?
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  Actually I would like it if my car stopped me from hitting someone that would be a good feature.
  - ajross 5y ago
    Let me know when cars stop you from deliberately hitting someone. I'd buy that too. Again, the argument above was not that the car should provide assistive technology (collision avoidance is a totally a thing), but that they should prevent a malicious driver from doing anything harmful.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - Crosseye_Jack 5y ago
    Then maybe consider a Volvo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLW4ATtPPKw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLW4ATtPPKw (But I'm sure its is being rolled out by other manufacturers) EDIT: But then again, its a Volvo :-P (It's not like they are considered a "hip" manufacturer)

bitexploder 5y ago

I used rubber bands and a water bottle. The general motion of the autopilot moves the bottle enough to trick it. Of course my hands were a millimeter from the wheel the whole time and it was just for my own amusement... my wife refuses to even try Autopilot. I only used it to see how it works. Some people love it, but I don't trust it, or at least myself with it. Tesla adaptive cruise is very good and does enough to reduce driving fatigue for me. AutoPilot has made far to many sketchy decisions in the short time I used it for me to trust it, Tesla statistics about its safety or not.